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Thread: friendly conversation on A2 and chipping

  1. #1
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    friendly conversation on A2 and chipping

    This video by our very own David Weaver mirrors what I have experienced with A2
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iorPTbHZOVE

    However some much more established woodworkers than myself have said here that they have used A2 irons sharpened at 25 degrees for years without issue. perhaps we can get to the bottom of this? Maybe A2 irons are condition sensitive. working better or worse depending on the level of whisky, wine and beer in your shop

    The only thing I can think of is that maybe a gentle touch is what allows the blade to hold an edge at 25. My A2 works ok at 25... then just folds over and often chips.
    Last edited by Prashun Patel; 05-14-2015 at 10:11 AM.

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    What wood are you planing with your A2 blade?

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    If I remember correctly, the shape and size of the carbides is what causes chipping at certain bevel angles. I actually feel that my A2 blades pare better at 30-33 degrees than they do 25 (in addition to lasting much longer).
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    What wood are you planing with your A2 blade?
    mostly end grain, the A2 in my apron plane was very chippy. t I had a A2 iron in a no.4 for a while and I sharpened it higher because it had a tendency to chip as the video described.

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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    What wood are you planing with your A2 blade?
    George,

    As probably one of the most experienced of actual woodworkers posting on forums (there are also others, such as Warren), I'm wondering if at least part of the problem is caused by jig and sharpening angles many seem they must adhere to. I really don't know what planes or chisels are A2, O1 or W1, and I don't know what most of the bevel angles are. I simply hone (no jig) when needed and continue back to work. When working the very infrequent chipping out, I believe I subconsciously adjust the angle I sharpen at, a tad to compensate and prevent further chip erosion.

    My sharpening is primarily oilstones, but lately Spyderco's, using Maurice Frasier's methods (Tools For Working Wood), which is not quite a side to side motion, but also not quite a front to back motion (the latter would seem to eventually end in a convex bevel, ala Paul Sellers). But I am wondering if being anal about specific angles and jigs may in fact have the opposite effect sought.
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    Tony, are you saying people sharpen too low? in any case I think the bottom line is - what angle is your final bevel at?

    I use oil stones and water stone and only freehand. I know +- which angle I'm at because I've taught myself to know. I wondering how the bevel angle that works for A2 seems to vary so greatly.

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    Matthew,

    I'm curious if in a "hobbyist's quest" to do as close to what pundits suggest, said practice may actually be the cause of issues. I really don't know and am not suggesting low angles, but is a reason I would pose the question to those that have made handtool woodworking their profession. I would like to hear George Wilson's opinion, as well as Warren Mickley and any others the post here about their opinions of bevel angles.

    Going in a different direction, I own a manufacturing plant, fabricating parts from powdered metal. Every part made, is pressed in tooling. With the unavoidable breakage that occurs, we look for the reasons, starting with operator error, then tool failure and next equipment failure. Within tooling failure, more times than not, we find failures occurring first because of fatigue (tooling does wear out) and to a lesser extent, because of improper processing of when the tooling was built (improper heat treat and/or draw of components).

    Anyhow, I don't believe people deliberately sharpen too low, though I think inadvertently some angles may accidentally end up that way! I do believe some get to anal about trying to maintain specific angles sometimes.
    If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.

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    I'll comment because I went through some aggravations with A2 at 30~ degrees. I could plane for a while without issue, but the edge would degrade within a few hours use. I moved to a 35 degree bevel and it alleviated that issue and now I see clearer/brighter surfaces. I did so on David Weaver's advice and it has saved me a great deal of effort.
    Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 05-13-2015 at 5:36 PM.
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    Does anyone know if A2 is any more finicky than other steels during the hardening process?

    My LA Jack blade of A2 used to chip out in the same place rather quickly. It is used mostly for shooting. After a few months of sharpening it seems to have stopped chipping. It is still honed to the original 25°.

    It could be that my first use of this was with the blade too far advanced. With shooting board use there is a lot of force when the blade first hits the edge of the wood.

    Anyhow, I don't believe people deliberately sharpen too low, though I think inadvertently some angles may accidentally end up that way! I do believe some get to anal about trying to maintain specific angles sometimes.
    This seem counter intuitive to me. It seems more likely to produce a micro bevel or a steeper angle, especially when free hand sharpening.

    As far as trying to maintain a specific angle it reminds me of something that happened at one of the big woodworking venues. My recollection of who it was may be off, but I think someone asked Frank Klausz at what angle he uses on his paring chisels. He responded that he uses an angle of sharp.

    jtk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I'll comment because I went through some aggravations with A2 at 30~ degrees. I could plane for a while without issue, but the edge would degrade within a few hours use. I moved to a 35 degree bevel and it alleviated that issue and now I see clearer/brighter surfaces. I did so on David Weaver's advice and it has saved me a great deal of effort.
    Brian, is that 35 degrees on the microbevel? What do you grind the main bevel to, if you don't mind me asking?

    Also, I heard David lump PM-V11 in with A2 for this chipping at low angles. Has anybody experienced that?

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    I have two edge tools made with PM-V11: a chisel and an edge trimming plane. The chisel performed poorly (cut) until I lowered the bevel to around 25 degrees. Now it is very pleasant and holds it edge very well (kiln dried lumber of cherry, walnut and similar hardness). The edge trimming plane came with a tiny chip, but I ground that out and the new edge is holding up very well (same as the chisel). If I wasn't so satisfied with my O1 plane blades, I would order a PM-V11, but won't since I don't need it!
    If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Stone View Post
    Brian, is that 35 degrees on the microbevel? What do you grind the main bevel to, if you don't mind me asking?

    Also, I heard David lump PM-V11 in with A2 for this chipping at low angles. Has anybody experienced that?
    I don't have a grinder, so I just continue working the same bevel once I find what works for me, so my bevels started as micro bevels and are heading toward full length bevels.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

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    I sure miss reading David's posts.

    PHM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul McGaha View Post
    I sure miss reading David's posts. PHM
    +1 on that. There are still many that add to the brain pool on SMC; David W was a loss to be sure.

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    I have minimal knowledge of metallurgy, so bear with my feable reasoning.

    First off, are there different qualities of A2? Steel should be made to a recipe, and I gather that A2 steel has 5% chromium to increase wear resistance. By comparison, stainless steel has 10.5% chromium. Adding more or less carbon, chromium, moly and vanadium will affect steel properties differently. Now if all steel manufacturers used the same formula for A2, we could rule out one variable. So the first question is whether all make A2 steel the same way, and that we may expect this area to be uniform?

    The second issue is how the steel is hardened and tempered. Is this also to a recipe? Can we expect the A2 steel from LV to be the same as LN and anyone else?

    It is only at this point that we may evaluate bevel angles, since increasing a bevel angle may disguise inadequacies/differences in a steel.

    Even if steels are prepared the same way, there are still rogue blades with brittle edges. Brittle is what leads to chipping. Indeed any chipping is a result of the edge lacking elasticity (tensile modulus), that is, it is too rigid. Powdered steels, such as PM-V11, are engineered to offer a finer grain structure along with -greater tensile modulus, which should (and does in my tests) offer greater resistance to chipping when hammering chisel edges into hardwood. PM-V11 may also be more safely used at lower bevel angles (as low as 20 degrees).

    It seems that there is more at work than fine grain structure alone, however, since simple carbon steel alone is not that wear or impact resistant. However it is more likely to roll than chip, unless the edge is brittle (from grinding or heat treatment). That is when one adds chromium to beef it up, and it turns into A2 or M2, etc.

    So before we start blaming A2, we need to know whether all A2 is expected to be the same - because if it is not, then we need to look at reliability factors, that is, from whom the steel is likely to do as promised.

    Anyone answer these questions?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 05-14-2015 at 12:30 AM.

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