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Thread: Need some quick advice on router vs shaper

  1. #1

    Need some quick advice on router vs shaper

    I have been looking at various options for getting a solid router set-up to make things like wainscotting panels and not been very happy with the choices that have come up. However, right now there's a guy selling a (he says) nearly new King 351S shaper for far too much but, you know, maybe... it comes with the 1/4" and 1/2" adapters to use router bits, runs on 220V, aand has what I like most: more power than I need. But I've never used a shaper, there's no sliding table, and I don't know eough to know if getting this makes sense. Does it?

  2. #2
    I've been doing woodworking for over 40 years now. I've built at least 7 complete bedroom sets, 4 breakfast table sets (with 4 chairs each), one complete kitchen, all the interior doors in one house, and lots of other furniture. I've never owned a shaper and haven't used one since wood class in high school. I am on my 4th or 5th router table and have no plans to upgrade. It is home made with a built in lift and lots of drawers for bits and other necessary pieces. I do raised panel doors on it (although not passage doors, just cabinet doors) and have made lots of molding with it. I don't know what you want to do for wainscoting but I would look at MLCS Woodworking and see if they have a router bit that will do it. If they do, I would stick with the router table. Get a good quality (Bosch or Porter Cable, possibly DeWalt or Makita) mid-sized router combo kit (fixed base and plunge base) and make a router table and get going. I have bigger and smaller routers now but am convinced that something in the 11-12A range is the right place to start. It will do everything, but bigger and smaller will do certain things easier.

    That said, if you really have a LOT of parts to make, a shaper might make sense. I am assuming you are a hobbyist with a few rooms to do and some other stuff spaced out over years. Shapers have far more powerful motors and larger cutters that don't dull as quickly. But they take up more space, their cutters are much more expensive, and they are less versatile. A mid sized router will work in a router table and also hand-held. A shaper will not power normal router bits well because the speed is too low. Router bits are made to turn about 20,000 rpm and shapers turn about 10,000. So even though a shaper will take router bits it is not a good substitute for a router.

    Jim

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dwight View Post
    I've been doing woodworking for over 40 years now. I've built at least 7 complete bedroom sets, 4 breakfast table sets (with 4 chairs each), one complete kitchen, all the interior doors in one house, and lots of other furniture. I've never owned a shaper and haven't used one since wood class in high school. I am on my 4th or 5th router table and have no plans to upgrade. It is home made with a built in lift and lots of drawers for bits and other necessary pieces. I do raised panel doors on it (although not passage doors, just cabinet doors) and have made lots of molding with it. I don't know what you want to do for wainscoting but I would look at MLCS Woodworking and see if they have a router bit that will do it. If they do, I would stick with the router table. Get a good quality (Bosch or Porter Cable, possibly DeWalt or Makita) mid-sized router combo kit (fixed base and plunge base) and make a router table and get going. I have bigger and smaller routers now but am convinced that something in the 11-12A range is the right place to start. It will do everything, but bigger and smaller will do certain things easier.

    That said, if you really have a LOT of parts to make, a shaper might make sense. I am assuming you are a hobbyist with a few rooms to do and some other stuff spaced out over years. Shapers have far more powerful motors and larger cutters that don't dull as quickly. But they take up more space, their cutters are much more expensive, and they are less versatile. A mid sized router will work in a router table and also hand-held. A shaper will not power normal router bits well because the speed is too low. Router bits are made to turn about 20,000 rpm and shapers turn about 10,000. So even though a shaper will take router bits it is not a good substitute for a router.

    Jim
    Very well said, don't think there could be much added to what Jim said here. I generally think of a shaper as a tool best suited for a larger volume production shop. I see used shapers often on CL for bargain prices ($500 or so) but for I'd rather have a nice router/router table/lift/fence setup with lots of bits even if it cost a $1,000+. I think most folks find a nice router table setup more flexible for a variety of projects. My 2 cents.
    Last edited by julian abram; 05-14-2015 at 5:00 PM.

  4. #4
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    Those home-shop folks that have them will swear by them much like the home-shop folks that have the footprint required for a RAS or a SCMS swear by those tools. Like Jim D, I have made a lot of stuff and never once wished for a shaper. The slow speed makes using router bits on one really sub-optimal compared to a powerful high speed router setup. The thing that puts folks off is the really high price of getting into a precision router table rig. At $300 for a PC 7518 or (my favorite) the Milwaukee 5625 plus a fence and lift, you're getting up there and still have to build your table. You will see a lot of used shapers for less than that initial investment. All that being said I would not give up the precision and versatility of the router format for a shaper. YMMV.
    "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".


    – Samuel Butler

  5. #5
    Thank you all.

    I will pass on the shaper - and wait for the right router combo to come along.

  6. #6
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    I never in my shop had a shaper but used em tons in shops I worked in and agree with the others that production shops are probably the best place for them. That said I added a small power feeder to my router table and that was the cats pajamas.

    Final thought... With a shaper like a router or molder its really all about the tooling (router bits/knives/cutters). If a shaper was being sold with a bunch of cutters it might be worth deeper thought.
    Last edited by Judson Green; 05-14-2015 at 7:02 PM.
    I got cash in my pocket. I got desire in my heart....

  7. #7
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    I've just started to run a Hammer F3 shaper as well in addition to my Incra based router table.

    I've actually been blown away by the capability of the shaper, but wouldn't want to get rid of my router table - and agree with most if not all of what has been said above.

    I'm no great expert, but the very large difference in size and scale of cutter means that while there is some overlap in capability (and the principles are very similar) they are not really alternatives.

    The fundamental is probably the RPM difference and cutter size - it basically means that the shaper must run much larger diameter tooling to deliver an equivalent cutting speed. Which more or less barring very specialised set ups rules out a lot of the sort of detailed small work easily done using small diameter cutters on a router table. Much cheaper tooling and much easier workholding as the guys say contribute to this - as does the much reduced requirement for power feeding. Not incapable of causing a bad accident, but probably quite a bit safer too unless the shaper is hugely well equipped with expensive aftermarket guarding, work holding and stuff.

    Against that a well set up half decent shaper can only impress in terms of the surface finish and rate of wood removal it delivers. Much heavier cuts and rates of feed become relatively effortless. There's really no argument on larger section work requiring heavy cuts, and where longer lengths must be processed in a time critical manner.

    If I was just gearing up for a project where i had to run off a bunch of very similar profiles by the yard that meant that the versatility of the router would not be required, future broader needs were not really an issue and it wouldn't be necessary to buy too much tooling (the job was to produce say off stock profiles for 2nd fix carpentry - skirting, doors and the like) then i'd go for the shaper every time if i could for the sheer ease with which it spits out the work...
    Last edited by ian maybury; 05-15-2015 at 4:12 AM.

  8. #8
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    For small profiles, like sash parts, I like my router tables because I can set up multiples. For large profiles, like raised panels, I like a shaper MUCH better.

  9. #9
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    I'll preface my comment by saying that I'm a professional….not with a huge production shop by any means, but I do use machinery daily.

    I can't imagine having a shop without a shaper. If I were at some point to downsize to a garage shop I would have a shaper, no question about it. It would be second in line only to the table saw. One of the most versatile tools you can own as far as I'm concerned. I certainly understand not every home hobby shop needs one and would never try to persuade someone who wasn't ready. But a good quality shaper is not comparable to a router table anymore than a circular saw is to a cabinet saw. Whether or not you need one is something only you can decide, but if you plan on doing a lot of decent sized profiles in the future, it may be worth a look.

    good luck,
    JeffD

  10. #10
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    I like and will continue to have both. One does not replace the other.
    Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.

  11. #11
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    I bought my Walker Turner 3hp 3ph 3/4" spindle shaper for $200. I use it a lot more than I use my router table. I use my handheld routers a lot more than I use my router table. A shaper can not be used for center piercing cuts... where the stock goes over the entire profile of the router bit. But for everything else done on a table I prefer a shaper. Shapers do a much better job with large cutters and big profiles than a router table. I have done cabinet doors on a good router table with a 3hp Porter Cable router... I much prefer to use a shaper. The Pros spend a lot of money on shaper cutters that they use a lot. I have had great luck with Grizzly shaper cutters and find them to be pretty competitively priced to large router bits. I was never able to get an acceptable lock miter joint on a router table. My shaper makes great lock miter joints!

    The biggest problem with a shaper is after you get one you will really want a power feeder. A shaper without a power feeder is a very useful flexible machine. The quality of finish cuts go up considerably once you have a power feeder. I had my shaper for 10 years and used it a lot before I scored a good deal on a power feeder... I love the power feeder on my shaper!

  12. #12
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    Price shaper cutters first, then decide if you really need a shaper.


    John

  13. #13
    I am not a pro and faced the same question when outfitting my shop - shaper or router table? Got a lot of good advice from this board when making that decision.

    One of the members here with a lot of experience with both said "there is nothing that you can do on a router table that cannot be done with a shaper - but the converse is not true". The biggest "splurge" purchase in my major tool decisions was a powermatic 5 hp shaper with 4 wheel feeder. It is by far my favorite tool - even over my 19" BS. The safety & precision is just amazing - yah it can take a while to setup but once you get it dialed in you just put on the ear muffs and toss wood through it with perfect results. Right now I am fitting up shaker door panels - the inside surface of the panel is flush with the inside of the rails/styles - so if the panel is sized perfectly there is zero gaps on the inside. I cut each panel slightly oversize and sneak up on the fit - assembling after pass to check the gaps between cope/sick rails and inside rails/styles & panel. With the shaper & power feeder using a climb cut the rabbit is perfect even on cross grain & I can shave a 64th off the tongue on an edge with the TS and run back through the shaper to re-do the rabbit. The process is fast & safe with flawless results even for a rookie like me. No way I could get anything close to the same results with a router table.

    I agree with Jeff - a shaper is second only to a table saw in necessity & capability.

  14. #14
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    A good shaper is vastly superior at every task it shares with a router table, really hard to compare or even explain it if you haven't experienced it. They are not completely parallel choices and can be very complimentary. A shaper is also larger, more expensive to buy and populate with tooling, and more expensive to power. I'm a pro who came to wood working from another career. I started in my home shop on a router table, the first time I used a shaper was a revelation, I never wanted to use the router table again for doors and moldings, at this point I'd rather hang myself with panty hose from the rafters then make one more door on a router table. I love my router table for what it's good at, spinning small bits at high speeds....I leave the heavy lifting to the more capable machine.

    That said the choice is really tied to your situation, what you want to make, how fast and how much, how much you enjoy sanding (ie shaper=a lot less sanding re: cleaner cuts, more per inch, power feed), how much space you have, how much you want to spend, and how much time you are willing to invest in learning a new machine. IMO the shaper is actually a vastly more versatile machine, buts it's capacities are not strictly obvious, you have to learn its rules and potential like any machine. I will advise that most shapers make marginal to terrible routers due to lower rpm's, if you buy a shaper you really want to use it as a shaper.

    You can certainly do a lot of work with either, which ever you choose work safe and enjoy.
    "A good miter set up is like yoga pants: it makes everyone's butts look good." Prashun Patel

  15. #15
    a shaper head for pin knifes makes tooling cheaper than router bits if your looking at tooling cost as a concern . yes you can spend a lot on insert and brazed tooling but you don't need/ have to.

    Its not a question of the spindle moulders having to run larger heads because the RPM are lower its more of a matter that the cutting geometry of the tooling is much better because there is room in the head for proper rake angles of the cutting edge /knifes. its router bits that need to run faster for good cuts because there is no material for knife angle geometry in the bit shank. they put shear angle on bits to improve the cut and to deal with the scraping cut low rake of these bits, but this is something not needed in a spindle moulder head as there is plenty of cutter block material supporting the knife at a number a cutting angles . This is why a jointer head is as large as it is to accommodate knifes. So the same size shape in a spindle moulder will cut better than a router bit cut because of cutting geometry afforded by the bigger heads ,and that's a fact. As to running smaller diameters on spindle moulder in the past they used french head spindle. These where spindles with a slot through the middle that held french head steel that was a high carbon that you cut with a file and than heat treat. you only had to grind on side good and let that one end be the cutting circle the other balance, they work more like a scraper when cutting because there have no rake to the knife and it is the router that has replaced this type of work and has improved the work safety in small diameter cutting.

    If you use a spindle moulder you will find less work for both the router and dado stack. A very old machine type and a classic.

    a french head spindle
    Last edited by jack forsberg; 05-15-2015 at 9:02 PM.
    jack
    English machines

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