Lee Valley's answer to the new LN honing jig

[Mike Brady]

I briefly tried my LV narrow blade head on a Lie-Nielsen mortise chisel; one of the thicker (taller)(1/2" size) ones. Indeed, the clamping jaws do not hold it securely. I think this is because the two jaws are canted or toed-in slightly. The jaws have to exceed the thickness of the chisel so that they can bear on the top corners of the chisel blade. That critical height can't exceed 11/32" or the jaws are just contacting the sides(arrises?) of the chisel, and that contact area is no way going to hold the thick chisel securely during honing. You may have to see this to understand what I am getting at, but no, the narrow blade attachment will only hold the smaller sizes of mortise chisels, if any.

[Kent A Bathurst]

.........LN.... is not an innovation focused company....likely very little investment in R&D....poor track record in ability to come up with new products....pretty lame as an explanation for products they have been showing off for years.

A bit harsh, Frank, don't you think?

They have taken the all-time classic designs and elevated them to exceptional levels of quality and performance, well beyond the originals. So, of course, their problem is a lack of innovation. That's like saying my A+C furniture does not show the flair or prescience of Naguchi.

They have a different business model than LV - no question. Your point is that their approach is therefore invalid by definition, do I read that correctly?

So - the plow plane is taking longer than their dedicated customer base would like. Mayhaps they are trying to keep those people up to date on what they are doing, as a courtesy. The harm in doing that is what, exactly?

Why are you looking to pick a fight? Your way or out? A tad bit disappointing.

For the Record: I own multiple products from both companies. I admire them both.

EDIT: Brian caught my wild pitch - corrected accordingly. Thnx.

[Brian Holcombe]

That's like saying my A+C furniture does not show the flair or prescience of Namaguchi.

Isamu Noguchi?

[Mike Brady]

Kent, Frank is expressing (harshly, yes) the frustration of many Lie-Nielsen customers who have been told repeatedly over the last two years that new products "will be ready at the end of the month". It is an uncharacteristic stumble. No doubt they would do things differently if given another chance and not tease products that remain unavailable two years hence.

What makes me wonder is how the multitude of Lie-Nielsen products ever got conceived and made in less than three decades; yet these go unmade for more than two years? I can only imagine how vexing it must be for the maker.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I acknowledge the validity of your points, Mike.

I simply do not get it. We can agree to put that down as my problem, not yours.

I find it interesting how often, and how vociferously, I read comments by people about the LN plow plane. Nearly 500 years ago, Copernicus proved that the universe does not revolve around a plow plane - my Polish is very spotty, so I may have misread that last bit.....

I have been able to muddle thru without a plow plane for lo these many years. I betcha I can stretch that out a bit.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm much more interested in HNT Gordon's moving fillister plane.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I'm much more interested in HNT Gordon's moving fillister plane.

Yeah......you got me hooked with one of your previous posts, especially where he said they were doing the moving fillister to learn enough to make a plow............

[Frank Martin]

A bit harsh, Frank, don't you think?

They have taken the all-time classic designs and elevated them to exceptional levels of quality and performance, well beyond the originals. So, of course, their problem is a lack of innovation. That's like saying my A+C furniture does not show the flair or prescience of Naguchi.

They have a different business model than LV - no question. Your point is that their approach is therefore invalid by definition, do I read that correctly?

So - the plow plane is taking longer than their dedicated customer base would like. Mayhaps they are trying to keep those people up to date on what they are doing, as a courtesy. The harm in doing that is what, exactly?

Why are you looking to pick a fight? Your way or out? A tad bit disappointing.

For the Record: I own multiple products from both companies. I admire them both.

EDIT: Brian caught my wild pitch - corrected accordingly. Thnx.

Actually, I never said their approach is invalid and not at all trying to pick a fight. Clearly their approach is as they are selling a lot of planes. I also own some of them. Specifically, I prefer their block planes over the Veritas versions, of course that changed with the shiny NX plane. Still prefer the LN 102 over the Veritas Apron plane. Same for the LN chisel plane. I am very glad that we have both companies. Different does not mean bad.

I am not even looking forward to the two LN products that were the subject of the original post, as I don't have a need for them at this point.

So, all of this out of the way, what I intended to say is that looking at both companies track record, LN does not appear to have as much R&D focus as Lee Valley. Also, while I agree that LN manufactures the Stanley models with better materials and much closer tolerances, they don't come up with a new design. So, that is the reason I personally don't consider LN a very innovative company. Of course these are my opinions and does not mean that everyone has to agree.

I also find this years of showing of products that are still not in the market pretty amusing. Not smart, lame and amusing.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Frank: I expressed similar concerns to a LN rep at the last Hand Tool Event I attended. The HTEs themselves are a pretty darn nice thing LN provides for us. Costs a pretty penny, no doubt, and the format is superb IMO. Anyway, his answer(s) made sense - TLN is being cautious moving forward - too big too fast can equal disaster. TLN REFUSES to outsource any part of any product outside the USA. He wants the product to be bulletproof before production is rolled out.

LN is a fair bit different, but they have storefronts in many locales. Not sure about the sourcing of parts and pieces, but I believe Veritas is virtually, if not all, Canadian made.

Both LN and LV have a fair amount of my money, both excel at Customer Service, and both have excellent products. How they do business is the call of the person calling the shots. We can complain if it doesn't suit us, ( I don't complain, perhaps question at times ) but personally, I have nothing but respect for TLN and Rob Lee. Keep doing what you are doing gentlemen.

[Peter Pedisich]

Lee Valley, maker of Veritas, is a larger company with greater resources than LN. This explains a lot about product development.
Like most folks here I own tools from both companies, and have a great deal of respect for both.
I have worked for manufacturers for 28 years, and the supplier base from raw materials to precision job shops has dwindled and made it much more difficult to bring a product to market in relatively modest item quantity.

[Howard Skillington]

Your report is the one I have been waiting for, Mike. I suspected the issue might be the inability of LV's canted jaws to prevent a thicker chisel from riding up as pressure is applied toward the stone. If that is indeed the case, then I am back to my earlier conclusion that LV has botched this product.
Yet - Greg seemed satisfied in his video with its grip on the same Narex mortise chisels I have. LV's customer rep has encouraged me to try the Narrow-blade head and return it if it doesn't work for me. I guess I'll try it myself, and let LV bear the cost of taking it back if it can't do the job.
I appreciate your giving me fair warning.

[J. Greg Jones]

One thing to keep in mind is that the Narex mortise chisels have slightly tapered sides, while the Lie-Nielsen mortise chisels have parallel sides. All other things being equal, I expect the narrow-blade head will clamp better on chisels with tapered sides than they will on chisels with flat, parallel sides.

[John Glover]

I'm going to buy it and test it on one of my 1/16th chisels.

It doesn't quite clamp my Ray Isles 1/16" chisel: although it will clamp a piece of paper, the clamping point is above the height of my 1/16" chisel.

John

[Mike Brady]

What I can glean from talking to Lie-Nielsen staff is that the honing guide is difficult to manufacture due to the interchangeability of the jaws. Each of the jaw sets must mate perfectly with the "base" piece that contains the roller wheel and adjustment screw. The jaws contain alignment pins and captured screws that have female counterparts in the base. Because of this each jaw must fit all of the bases that they manufacture (and visa versa) there is no tolerance for error.

In my experience with the Lee Valley guide, including the new narrow blade head, the system is, as someone here said, "fiddley". It does the job, though. What it can't do, by design, is address every tool's sharpening requirements the way the Lie-Nielsen set can. What we have seen at Hand Tool Events are prototypes, not production. I assume that the one Chris Schwarz has was also a pre-production unit made for beta testing.

Getting back to the LV jig, I have decided that the 2 degree microbevel achieved by turning the knob on the roller wheel is not sufficient; so I actually increase the the bevel by 5 degrees to get a microbevel. That, of course makes the process even fiddlier, since I have to readjust the work piece to do that. That is required only if I am establishing a new primary bevel; which isn't very often.

One little glitch I found with the the new narrow blade head is that a bench chisel can slip loose from the jaws. A couple of times the whole rig fell on its nose because of this. Make sure the chisel is seated well before you go to the sharpening media. You also can't tighten the projection stop on the degree scale until the chisel is snugged in the clamping jaws.

[Howard Skillington]

Sounds reasonable to me, Greg. Also, if the head's holding power is limited, it's a good reminder not to press down too hard on my diamond stones as I hone.
At this point I think I just need to give it a try and see if it works for me. But I do think it's reasonable of us to expect LV's system to handle the Narex mortise chisels.