Communication

[Joel Thomas Runyan]

These are small details to the majority of readers, to be sure. But they are not nonsense. If we are to accept as readers that any symbol which is legible is acceptable, then we as woodworkers would likewise have to accept that any thing which has four stable legs and a top constitutes a good table. And surely the uncomfortable feeling that most people unconsciously feel and quickly pass over--but any good woodworker recognizes as an ergonomically awkward height, narrow knee space, or split-level seam--is not nonsense. It represents a deep (if latent) understanding of the way things ought to be, and that way has been passed down in type and in wood for hundreds of years. If we lazily pass over it because what we create is only "functional" and only of use to the maker in its sale, then we do an ugly disservice to all the great ones who struggled and found the right way in order that their works be beautiful and lasting. The misuse of type is no different to those aware than the knocking of knees, contortion of posture, and general instability wrought by an ill-designed table. It can be read, indeed, but only in a persistent state of discomfort.

[Mel Fulks]

I'm generally on the side of accuracy. Did not know there is a difference in those marks. There are some changes being made in our language as regional differences disappear. Seen pieces on TV where Southerners go to school to lose their accents in the hope of getting jobs in media. A side effect is they come out mispronouncing some words they formerly said correctly. The word "often" has always been pronounced "offen" ,now everyone on TV pronounces the T. And style manuals are only right until another one comes out.

[Jim Koepke]

They’re in the business of publishing books. Wouldn’t it behoove them to learn the standards of the industry as they should be practiced?

I’ve lost count of the number of copies of Bringhurst’s The Elements of Typographic Style I‘ve given to people — if I thought they’d act on it, I’d gladly purchase yet another copy and send it to them.

They are in the business of publishing specialty books. The speciality being woodworking related.

Is there a reason you suspect they would not welcome some information they may be missing?

jtk

[Tom Stenzel]

If there's a minor mistake I don't see that as a major problem. But if there are lots of mistakes it does build up mentally and make something unnecessarily hard to read.

Personally I'm not hard on widow/orphan control in fiction writing. Reading fiction I'm always reading forward and rarely backing up to reread something.

But in a technical book it's irritating as you might be flipping a page back and forth to make sense of something.

My suggestion to William Adams: Contact the company and offer your services. You are probably pointing out layout issues they're completely unaware of. You could get a job out if it, even work from your home. That is, if you have the time or interest and can get decent compensation for your work.

Jim Koepke wrote:

****
Is there a reason you suspect they would not welcome some information they may be missing?
****

It's human nature to not like being told you don't know what you're doing. I know, I have a lot of experience in the matter!



-Tom

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The average person doesn't read with the goal or idea of critiquing either typography or grammar but rather reads for content and possibly gaining some knowledge. In fact, I would suggest few people are knowledgeable enough to recognize minor typographical mistakes.

A person in need of sustenance won't care if offered steak or burger. As long as it cooked well enough, not necessarily perfectly cooked, they will find it palatable.

[William Adams]

I did: blog.lostartpress.com/2015/05/12/free-shipping-for-virtuoso-ends-tomorrow/

Can’t really do it as job, since I have a non-compete w/ my day job, but we’ll see what they say. I guess I should go back to working on that book Addison-Wesley wants me to write.

[Jim Koepke]

It's human nature to not like being told you don't know what you're doing. I know, I have a lot of experience in the matter!

A recent thread was about a bicycle with handle bars that were geared to turn the front wheel opposite of what we have all learned to steer a bike. It took forever for the person to unlearn his instincts. Once he had, it took him awhile to be able to ride a normal bike.

It may be similar for other learned behavior.

Then again, it may be in how changing a habit is approached.

Come in shouting, "you guys really messed up and need to change your ways... " May get you a polite thank you and a "we'll get back to you."

Start with how ground breaking their books are to the woodworking public, then offering to show them a few techniques to take their publishing to the next level may be a way to get them to take heed.

jtk

[Scott Shepherd]

These are small details to the majority of readers, to be sure. But they are not nonsense. If we are to accept as readers that any symbol which is legible is acceptable, then we as woodworkers would likewise have to accept that any thing which has four stable legs and a top constitutes a good table. And surely the uncomfortable feeling that most people unconsciously feel and quickly pass over--but any good woodworker recognizes as an ergonomically awkward height, narrow knee space, or split-level seam--is not nonsense. It represents a deep (if latent) understanding of the way things ought to be, and that way has been passed down in type and in wood for hundreds of years. If we lazily pass over it because what we create is only "functional" and only of use to the maker in its sale, then we do an ugly disservice to all the great ones who struggled and found the right way in order that their works be beautiful and lasting. The misuse of type is no different to those aware than the knocking of knees, contortion of posture, and general instability wrought by an ill-designed table. It can be read, indeed, but only in a persistent state of discomfort.

If you put two quotation marks straight or at an angle, I seriously doubt that's the same thing as making a table that's crooked.

I have read many books written by tradesmen. I realize when I buy them that they aren't English professors.

I can't even make my keyboard type the things that are being pointed out. I get one choice, shift on the apostrophe. Whatever it is, it is. If I were to self publish an ebook, it would use the keys I have on my keyboard.

At the same time, if they paid people to fix it perfect, then people would be complaining that the book costs too much and no one would buy it because they'd be "getting ripped off".

Man, I hope I never get to the point in life where the direction of inch and foot marks gets my feathers ruffled.

[William Adams]

To access such special characters one can either use a utility such as Charmap.exe or Allchars: http://allchars.zwolnet.com/ — some operating systems have built-in support for accessing them, such as Mac OS X’s support inherited from NeXTstep.

Some application programs will have glyph palettes to make them accessible — check the manual for your word processor / page layout program.

As I noted, it would be a couple of hours’ work to fix it up — wouldn’t affect the price and would barely eat into their profits. The variability of the print run would be a larger number.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Very interesting reading in this thread so far. But back to Moses' question about communication.

Good communication means different things to different groups of people. It is both a matter of style and an ability to get the message across. What is appropriate for a scientific paper or book is far removed from a children's book in sentence and paragraph length, types of sentences used (simple, compound, complex) and how the ideas are expressed. Military prose uses almost no adjectives, keeps the message short, and strives hard to word things so that there is no ambiguity or question as to what is meant. In contrast, the text of a political speech.... well, need I really explain. All of the preceding communicate, but the style, text, grammar, and choice of words vary to meet differing needs.

[Joel Thomas Runyan]

If you put two quotation marks straight or at an angle, I seriously doubt that's the same thing as making a table that's crooked.

I have read many books written by tradesmen. I realize when I buy them that they aren't English professors.

I can't even make my keyboard type the things that are being pointed out. I get one choice, shift on the apostrophe. Whatever it is, it is. If I were to self publish an ebook, it would use the keys I have on my keyboard.

At the same time, if they paid people to fix it perfect, then people would be complaining that the book costs too much and no one would buy it because they'd be "getting ripped off".

Man, I hope I never get to the point in life where the direction of inch and foot marks gets my feathers ruffled.

It's the same thing in principle. There's a right way to do it, but most people can still read a poorly set book or use a crooked table, so it goes unnoticed. The authors of these books aren't the ones doing the typesetting--I hope--so rest assured, someone is already getting paid to do the work that *ought* to include fixing the aforementioned errors. And I'm sure that if you pride yourself in your work, whatever it is, someone doing a so-so job of it would catch your eye. I don't think anyone has ruffled feathers here, we're just pointing out obvious problems with products we've purchased.

[Kent A Bathurst]

THis is interesting.........please continue...........

popcorn (640x640).jpg

[Art Mann]

How can we worry about the shape of inch marks and quotation marks when a large plurality of the people on this and most other forums don't even know the difference between "quiet" and "quite"? The are just letting their spell checker make the bad calls for them. This information is quiet disturbing but I wish we could all be quite about it.

[Jim Koepke]

a large plurality of the people on this and most other forums don't even know the difference between "quiet" and "quite"

A more often made error for this forum is "vise" and "vice." The both may have a strong grip, but they are different.

jtk

[Mel Miller]

As far as butchering language goes, "these ones" bothers me the most.