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Thread: Communication

  1. #61
    Going back to Moses original statement that the only requirement in delivering your thoughts is that the receiving party comprehend it. That's a fair thought, but it's not quite that simple. If you see a child standing with their legs crossed, hands in front of them and squirming, it's safe to assume the child needs to go to the bathroom. We as adults have learned it's more appropriate to indicate that need via the use of words. That said, a sailor or truck driver will choose very different words than Southern Ladies at a social event to indicate they need to go to the bathroom.

    Now let's switch over to learning, experience & exposure. I read through the posts in this thread and it seems one of the big issues is lack of learning or exposure to gain that experience and knowledge.

    How many of you actually learned typography and layout in school along with everyone else in your class? I was born in the 60's so all my school work was handwritten. I learned to type on a manual typewriter in 7th grade and very little was discussed about formatting a letter other than you indent 5 spaces for the first word in the paragraph. Everything else was left-aligned. Skip to 11th grade and I had an awesome teacher who noticed a skill set I had. With only glancing at documents, I can spot format, typos & spacing errors without thoroughly reading the document. Because of my novelty skill, she showed me different layouts and some formatting rules - so that I actually had some exposure to them. No other students in my class learned about this kind of stuff.

    Typography? I was about 19 when the coolest thing ever was when I learned you could take the daisy wheel out of a typewriter and switch from courier to orator! That was the extent of my typography training.

    I feel blessed to have had as much exposure to so many different things in my life, yet there is always so much more to learn. I am a font-aholic. I have thousands of fonts organized on my computer. I design fonts that I need for my business or for personal projects. I have worked with all sorts of non-standard glyphs, but I can't tell you what a good majority of the glyph symbols mean or what their use is. What I know is all self-taught based on the exposure & resources I stumbled across over the years - because I have an interest in fonts & graphics and sought out more information not taught in my school classes.

    Switching back to the ability to communicate ... While I would prefer to read a well-formatted document, I accept that the person writing it probably does not have that skill set. If I want to learn about the "Cladrastis kentukea" I will probably learn a lot more practical information from someone who works at a Kentucky tree farm and never used a computer, than if I talk to a person who formats & edits documents all day and studies modern dance at night in New York City. Team those two people up and they could produce a neatly formatted, valuable reference guide to the horticulture community.


    I read recipes the same way I read science fiction. I get to the end and I think, "Well, that’s not going to happen."

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Chance in Iowa View Post
    Going back to Moses original statement that the only requirement in delivering your thoughts is that the receiving party comprehend it. That's a fair thought, but it's not quite that simple. If you see a child standing with their legs crossed, hands in front of them and squirming, it's safe to assume the child needs to go to the bathroom. We as adults have learned it's more appropriate to indicate that need via the use of words. That said, a sailor or truck driver will choose very different words than Southern Ladies at a social event to indicate they need to go to the bathroom.

    ...edited...

    Switching back to the ability to communicate ... While I would prefer to read a well-formatted document, I accept that the person writing it probably does not have that skill set. If I want to learn about the "Cladrastis kentukea" I will probably learn a lot more practical information from someone who works at a Kentucky tree farm and never used a computer, than if I talk to a person who formats & edits documents all day and studies modern dance at night in New York City. Team those two people up and they could produce a neatly formatted, valuable reference guide to the horticulture community.


    I have resisted commenting so far. I know a fair bit about graphic layout, kerning, etc... but felt I had little to add here. However on the subject of communication, I have fairly strong opinions:

    (Standing on the soapbox now) Where I went to school, they promised only two things, "you will learn to think here and you will learn to write." They delivered. I wrote a minimum of one paper per week during university.

    The best advice I ever got was during my first week as an intern architect. My supervisor asked me on Friday what I thought my job was. I responded with a very academic and fairly pretentious response as to the nature of architecture. He responded, "cut the crap, what is your job?" I responded with the duties they had me doing that week, bathroom elevations and stair sections. "No, no, you're not getting it. Your job is to communicate. You communicate the owner's wishes and your design to those that will build it. You need to become expert at this. When you become expert in communicating this, no matter what you do, you will be successful."

    I took that advice to heart, and strove to become as clear a communicator as possible. I fail far too often.

    I disagree with Moses in some respects. In social situations, one must be gracious and mannered in communications to all. This means acceptance of sloppiness or imprecision of language. However, in professional communications and all publishing, one should be as precise and clear as possible. Sloppiness of terminology and other aspects create needless confusion and create doubt in the knowlege of the author. We would not accept a substitutution of the term "cap iron or chip breaker" for "lever cap". In conversation , we would know what is meant and likely let it go. In publication, it is unacceptably sloppy.

    Analogous, is when you see a dirty table tray on your airplane flight. You then wonder their standards on engine maintenance.

    In short, in publishing, I think there is a higher standard for language, precision and clarity. (Off of soapbox now)

    When I read a non-fiction book or substantial prose, I think it is incumbant upon the author to clearly and precisely express their ideas. It is after all, a lasting impression of their work.
    Shawn

    "no trees were harmed in the creation of this message, however some electrons were temporarily inconvenienced."

    "I resent having to use my brain to do your thinking"

  3. #63
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    Before we were discussing the layout of the text. Shawn brings up probably the most worthwhile part of communication -clarity of expression.

    The one most influential thing I read about that was the essay Politics and the English Language by George Orwell. It's available on the 'net, worth the time to read it.

    -Tom

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger wiegand View Post
    You could argue that in making a drawer it is sufficient that the materials to be contained not fall out the bottom, and that it slide back and forth. You'd be right if all you care about is the most base level of functionality. Why do more than a nailed together box? Dovetails, elegantly carved handles, piston fit in the carcass are all extravagant frippery.

    So too with language and typography. You can pay any amount of attention to grammar, word use, typography, and page layout in an effort to make a work of art out of a simple written communication.

    I enjoy good typography and layout (though I know little about it), but am really irked when I have to read something where the layout impedes my ability to read the words (like the lousy MS Word right justification that creates all kinds of weird spacing). Just like when I make a drawer and want it to have more than the crudest functionality, I think it's worth investing time and energy in making my written documents look nice on the page. Is it necessary?, probably not; does it create a good impression and give better results? (i.e. a better reception to what I've written), yes, in my experience; does it make me feel better about my work? yes, absolutely.
    I think Frank Klausz addresses these concerns well. Basically there is a point of no value added in woodworking projects. There has to be a balance between the value of the product and the amount of time spent producing it.

    This discussion has been very educational for me. I own a lot of books and will be looking at them through different eyes now. I appreciate the fact that the errors, whether they are egregious or not, were pointed out because I learned something.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "You don't have to give birth to someone to have a family." (Sandra Bullock)




  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by William Adams View Post
    They’re in the business of publishing books. Wouldn’t it behoove them to learn the standards of the industry as they should be practiced?

    I’ve lost count of the number of copies of Bringhurst’s The Elements of Typographic Style I‘ve given to people — if I thought they’d act on it, I’d gladly purchase yet another copy and send it to them.
    Bringhurst's book is a LAP book for graphic designers. Check it out and you will see the rigor William is talking about at work. Zero content about woodworking, but a great read, sort of like this thread.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Ryan View Post
    Zero content about woodworking
    I dunno, if one is doing signage, it's very relevant. Another book which might be more acceptable here would be Michael Harvey's Creative Lettering Today which I am pleased to see has come back down to a reasonable valuation. It’s a combining of three of his previous texts including Carving Letters in Stone & Wood.

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