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Thread: Communication

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Miller View Post
    As far as butchering language goes, "these ones" bothers me the most.
    And - how do y'all feel about "youse guys"?
    When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kent A Bathurst View Post
    And - how do y'all feel about "youse guys"?
    I ain't got no opinion on that.

  3. #33
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    Yea, I seen that the other day.

    Seriously, great discussion.

    I understand that the way a person presents themselves affects our opinion of them, mainly their intelligence. For instance I have developed opinions of the people whose posts I read in this forum based on the way they are written which opinions may not be accurate at all.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "You don't have to give birth to someone to have a family." (Sandra Bullock)




  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Joel Thomas Runyan View Post
    It's the same thing in principle. There's a right way to do it, but most people can still read a poorly set book or use a crooked table, so it goes unnoticed. The authors of these books aren't the ones doing the typesetting--I hope--so rest assured, someone is already getting paid to do the work that *ought* to include fixing the aforementioned errors. And I'm sure that if you pride yourself in your work, whatever it is, someone doing a so-so job of it would catch your eye. I don't think anyone has ruffled feathers here, we're just pointing out obvious problems with products we've purchased.
    It's not the same thing in principle. You are comparing a crooked table to to lines that are .030" in height with a .010" skew to a crooked table? A crooked table would be noticed by all, and if it were a poor joint, then the table would fall apart or fail at some point in time. The vast majority of people would notice it. However, probably less than 1/10 of 1% would notice the skew on the hash marks and 100 years from now, someone will still be able to use that book.

    So the proposal, for a tradesman, that wants to write a book, is to learn typography and study all the different glyphs available and make sure they are using the right ones? I hope that never happens because that would mean no tradespeople would ever write another book.

    I can access many different glyphs from my keyboard. If I hold down the key for any letter, it pops up with all the various glyphs available for that key. For instance, if I want to type a, I can type a,à,á,â,ä,æ,ã,å,ā all from the same key, just holding the key down. Hold the quote button down. No glyphs. If it's not important enough for Apple, who was at the center of the desktop publishing world for decades, then it's not important enough for me.

    If you told me to cut a piece 5' 2" or 5ft.2in. or 5 fut 2 enches long, I'd still cut you a piece 62 inches long.

    As noted on the practicaltypography site :

    Screen Shot 2015-05-25 at 8.42.58 AM.png

    So it's been removed from character sets in the digital age, meaning, it doesn't exist in many character sets. If it doesn't exist, you can't use it.
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  5. #35
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    Butchering the language or the evolving of the language I don't know which but within the past year - or a bit longer - I have heard the word SO creeping in to usage in a most grating manner. Not unlike the word LIKE which became used in every sentence with or without merit, the word SO has now become THE WAY to begin to answer a question.

    Started out as a young person thing but now the use of the word SO at the front of a sentence has become part of the vernacular like a plague. I hear it now across the spectrum of public talk, from PHDs, generals, politicians (well of course) media interviewers and those they interview, among others. Listen for it and beware or you will become just another of these ones using SO to start your sentences.

    As for the style critique of published books - well, this borders on the tyranny of knowledge, that is, if such awareness keeps the reader from enjoying or appreciating the subject because the presentation is a bit flawed. I agree with the comment that I would rather the book be written and the knowledge shared, than not at all, for fear of misplacing punctuation or the like. As a woodworker/builder I can go into a room and spot many flaws of which the homeowner is unaware - blissfully so. I choose to be glad they have a nice home and not make myself crazy with how much better it could all be if they had only asked me.

    Please don't scrutinize my post .
    "... for when we become in heart completely poor, we at once are the treasurers & disbursers of enormous riches."
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  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Murdoch View Post
    Listen for it and beware or you will become just another of these ones using SO to start your sentences.
    So sorry Sam
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    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  7. #37
    Proper primes and double primes were included when I purchased my first digital font set, Adobe Garamond, Adobe Original #100 and #101 back in 1989, and they’ve always been present in Pi fonts such as Agfa’s Mathematical Pi set.

    Accept no excuses or substitutions. Demand the best.

    Sad thing is, these days, the only books I unabashedly enjoy purchasing / reading are those by Dr. Donald Knuth — find an error in one and time was, he’d cut you a check for $2.56 (points of improvement are worth 32¢) — these days you get a deposit into a virtual account in his fictional Bank of the Island of San Seriffe: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/boss.html (I’ve got a physical award check which I keep in my cubicle at work, but haven’t yet found an error since the digital system was set up. AIUI, Dr. Knuth will cash you out w/ a money order if so requested.).

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Murdoch View Post
    As for the style critique of published books - well, this borders on the tyranny of knowledge, that is, if such awareness keeps the reader from enjoying or appreciating the subject because the presentation is a bit flawed. I agree with the comment that I would rather the book be written and the knowledge shared, than not at all, for fear of misplacing punctuation or the like. As a woodworker/builder I can go into a room and spot many flaws of which the homeowner is unaware - blissfully so. I choose to be glad they have a nice home and not make myself crazy with how much better it could all be if they had only asked me.
    Good points Sam. Thanks. They don't invalidate what's bugging William - instead they put things in a context that I can personally relate to - he's that skilled professional looking at the flaws in my "nice home".

    Personally, I'd rather read a rough, long-hand manuscript than not get the information I'm after. I think LAP is doing our profession/craft/hobby a service by finding a way to publish such books while still making a little money. I'll choose to accept the slightly lesser quality of their typography as part of that package. Others may not.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    It's not the same thing in principle. You are comparing a crooked table to to lines that are .030" in height with a .010" skew to a crooked table? A crooked table would be noticed by all, and if it were a poor joint, then the table would fall apart or fail at some point in time. The vast majority of people would notice it. However, probably less than 1/10 of 1% would notice the skew on the hash marks and 100 years from now, someone will still be able to use that book.

    So the proposal, for a tradesman, that wants to write a book, is to learn typography and study all the different glyphs available and make sure they are using the right ones? I hope that never happens because that would mean no tradespeople would ever write another book.

    I can access many different glyphs from my keyboard. If I hold down the key for any letter, it pops up with all the various glyphs available for that key. For instance, if I want to type a, I can type a,à,á,â,ä,æ,ã,å,ā all from the same key, just holding the key down. Hold the quote button down. No glyphs. If it's not important enough for Apple, who was at the center of the desktop publishing world for decades, then it's not important enough for me.

    If you told me to cut a piece 5' 2" or 5ft.2in. or 5 fut 2 enches long, I'd still cut you a piece 62 inches long.

    As noted on the practicaltypography site :

    Screen Shot 2015-05-25 at 8.42.58 AM.png

    So it's been removed from character sets in the digital age, meaning, it doesn't exist in many character sets. If it doesn't exist, you can't use it.
    That refers to a difference in function. The similar *principle* is that there is a right way to set joinery, and there is a right way to set type. The consequences of each are obviously different. But if one does things only partially right, the whole is degraded. If a table top joint is unlevel by a 1/64", the vast majority of people would not notice it in use, and all else being equal the table could be used 100 years from now. And if everyone accepts that that 1/64" is just fine because it doesn't affect the table's use, then what's the point in doing finer work and flattening your table tops? Why don't we just screw some 2x4s together? It'll hold. Language and typesetting are the same way. They need to be vigorously maintained, or else our standards drop. And if you don't think that the standards of building furniture and writing prose can fall, I'm not sure what else to say.

    As I said before, the tradesman writing the book isn't the one doing the typesetting. He submits his manuscript to editors and copy-editors and all manner of other people who eliminate the mistakes. This is why publishing companies exist. Read through the myriad of free self-published books on Amazon and you will quickly see why having high standards of publication is necessary. Most people are terrible writers and designers, however good their ideas are. And there is something to say for having the ability to freely communicate one's ideas in book form. It's a great thing. But I'm arguing that having basic typography errors in a finely printed book about a tool-chest that is the very woodworking definition of anal-retentive detail obsession... well it's incongruous to the point of humor.

    And God help us if Apple is to become the standard of language and design in this world.

  10. #40
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    And God help us if Apple is to become the standard of language and design in this world.
    You may rest easy, the standard of language and design is safely in the hands or Twitter, Facebook and Youtube.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  11. #41
    To return to the original topic. Penultimately, communication is a test of the abilities of the person speaking/writing to elicit understanding and empathy in the person hearing/reading. Ultimately it’s whether or no information was accurately conveyed.

    While I believe I’ve accurately conveyed information, there doesn’t seem to be much empathy for my position. While I can certainly accept and understand that, I would appreciate assistance in understanding why.

    Briefly, the crux of my position is that work by professionals in a field should be held to the accepted standards of that field, whether or no the general public considers such standards worthy, or even of interest.

    Is that not a valid position? If not, why not? Does it apply to certain professions, but not to others? If that is the case, what are these professions and why / how are they relegated to this second-rate status?

    Let’s turn this around. You have been given a gift of a piece of furniture, which for some reason important people in your life were aware that you wanted, but didn’t have the wherewithal to make for yourself. It is purchased from a company which is known for perfection in some unrelated field, but when you receive it, it falls far short of perfection in ways which only you as a woodworker can recognize.

    Is it then valid when, upon attempting to discuss other aspects of the piece on a suitable forum, and you are drawn out about the failings of the piece as an exemplar of woodworking, your concerns and frustrations regarding this are dismissed out-of-hand as lacking merit, standing or import?
    Last edited by William Adams; 05-25-2015 at 1:41 PM.

  12. #42
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    One problem is that we're looking at this from a wood working making point of view to the book reader point of view.

    Let's change the comparison to driving down a road. A bumpy, poorly finished potholed road with poor signage can certainly get you where you want to go. But consciously or subconsciously when you arrive at your destination you will be more tired than if you had taken a nice road with good signs.

    Same with any literary content. People have spent careers figuring out what is pleasing to the eye and easy to read. To dismiss it as a bunch of trivia is a mistake.

    Although at my age and trifocals my ability to SEE the inch symbol is suspect, much less figure out if the correct symbol was used.

    Note to William Adams: I've read about the checks for $2.56 from Donald Knuth in connection to TAOCP. I've never met or knew someone that received one before. Yet another unsung celebrity here at the Creek.

    I wonder how many of those checks ever got cashed?

    -Tom

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by William Adams View Post
    Briefly, the crux of my position is that work by professionals in a field should be held to the accepted standards of that field, whether or no the general public considers such standards worthy, or even of interest.

    Is that not a valid position? If not, why not? Does it apply to certain professions, but not to others? If that is the case, what are these professions and why / how are they relegated to this second-rate status?
    Sure, the professionals in a field should be held to high standards. However, you're talking about perfection here. You're not talking about people in a book using "their" instead of "there". You're talking about something so obscure that it's at the very line of perfection. Are there people in every craft that are professionals that don't create perfection? Probably 99.99% of them don't. When was the last "perfect" woodworking project you saw? No flaws at all, perfect? If you looked at 1000 pieces with a critical eye, could you find fault with 999 of them? I would suspect so.

    I don't believe anyone is saying that it's not important to strive for perfection, we're just saying that most of us accept that people that do things perfect every time just don't put many products out for us to use.

    Perfection is something to strive for, but it's almost never obtainable. How many errors are there in a dictionary? I bet there are quite a few.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    I bet there are quite a few.
    Scott - how many times must I remind you about modal verbs?

    I will bet....
    I would bet.....
    I might bet.....
    and so forth........

    You are making us woodworkers look like uneducated.............ummmmmmm.......woodworkers?
    When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.

  15. #45
    Yes, but most of these are quite basic. Widow / orphan control is built into all page layout programs and even most word processors, it’s a checkbox which they didn’t check.

    Bad breaks is a simple, standard part of a final review of pages — you search for all hyphens and instances of hyphenated words and address them individually — I used to do it for a ~100 page journal once a month which had a 24 hour turnaround from submission to return of finished pages.

    Not having short last lines is a simple GREP search-replace to apply the nobreak attribute as local formatting to the last two words of a paragraph.

    Not trapping white space is basic good design principles.

    Consistent head formatting / placement is a matter of using proper paragraph styles, inline graphic styles and object styles and doing so allows the text to reflow automatically and makes doing the work quicker and more fluid. This actually would have made their pagination of the book go more quickly and automatically and saved enough time / effort to make all the other checks / corrections / changes.

    Using the wrong character obscures the meaning and demeans the language and diminishes it and is an out and out error, which no amount of frequency or prevalence can change.

    Thanks, Tom. Getting the reward check was one of the high points, and something which I was very glad of, and which exemplifies how making the effort to try for perfection results in a better product and world. My check was for his book Digital Typography though, not TAOCP. Noted Monotype should be capitalized and pointed out that he’d failed to mention that TeX had gained a feature which allowed it to change the spelling of a word when it was hyphenated.

    I’ll be blunt. Should the people at Lost Arts Press be considered as professionals in the book publishing field and held to the same standards of work as other book publishers such as Hartley & Marks? If not, why not?
    Last edited by William Adams; 05-25-2015 at 3:38 PM. Reason: Blunt

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