Customer finishing project?

[peter gagliardi]

I'm neither a cabinet maker nor a finishing expert (unless they want it by rattle-can, in which case I'm game...), so I'm going to give you the sales guy's answer. I would probably say "yes", for the reason that if you don't, there is surely someone else who will and the question then becomes whether or not you want the business.

That being said, I agree that it makes a lot more sense for you (the builder) to handle the finishing than to let the DIY'er do it so I might explain to the customer during the quotation process that you would be glad to install them, raw, if that's what they want but also reiterate that you are a professional and that because of this, you can guarantee top-notch results more quickly than they can and that by the time they bought all the supplies and chemicals to do it right, they could spend almost as much as they would with you, except that the results are not guaranteed. Ask them which makes more sense.

Also, and I may draw some heat for saying this, but why is it your concern after you install the cabinets? Assuming they were constructed and installed correctly and that is what the customer asked and paid for, why does it matter how they look after they paint or stain them? You provided the specified product and service, right? Satisfaction is 100% perception is and could you be confusing your perception with the perception of the person who actually buying your product? I visited a furniture show recently and there was a bench that was beautifully finished but very poorly constructed from a structural standpoint. It won a prize. In my mind, it should have won nothing, because there was no way a person could have sat upon it without collapsing it. But, I look at things from a structural standpoint. The judges probably looked at things from an artistic standpoint and because of this, made their decision based on that.

Maybe your customer does not care how the finish is? And maybe they never would really notice the difference between rattle-can lacquer and a good spray job. These are all our perceptions. But are they your customers perceptions? That's the real question.

Erik

Erik, in theory, your argument makes perfect sense. The problem lies with the individual customer, and his or her aquaintances. The job will almost assuredly be attributed to the OP, regardless of the fact they didn't supply the finishing. If the finishing is poor, that reflects terribly on the builders reputation!
I have zero issues telling someone that they should be looking elsewhere if they need a "deal"
I can't continue in business, and provide for my family by giving anyone a "deal" .
I quote the whole job at as fair and accurate a price as I can.

Every bit of my work at this point in my career comes from my reputation - good or bad!
I prefer the jobs that come from having a good reputation. I've taken a lot of my time and money and invested it in my business, and learned what I need to know, sometimes by losing my shirt, and pants in some cases, by trying to do the job properly and professionally. I've built my following of customers one dollar, and one person at a time.
I'm not about to let an inexperienced non professional- doctor, lawyer , or otherwise tarnish or ruin what I have invested my life so far in building up. Nobody who takes their career or practice seriously would either.

It may not be much of a business, but for good or for bad, it is my business.

[Prashun Patel]

I'm with Erik. My day business is not woodworking, but we do manufacture products. There's room to be flexible and get to a 'yes' that makes everyone happy. You have to be willing to engage and educate and compromise, though. You can run your business however you see fit. But I run mine with the constant fear that someone else will eat my lunch. If in dancing with the customer during the proposal/negotiation process I realize the risk of failure is too great, then I'll pass on an opportunity. But I rarely give up without exploring the possibility as everyone here would have you do.

I wouldn't consider posting on this forum sufficient due diligence in making a business decision.

[Brian Hale]

You should give them a quote to strip/refinish in case they screw it up.

[Peter Quinn]

Also, and I may draw some heat for saying this, but why is it your concern after you install the cabinets? Assuming they were constructed and installed correctly and that is what the customer asked and paid for, why does it matter how they look after they paint or stain them? You provided the specified product and service, right? Satisfaction is 100% perception is and could you be confusing your perception with the perception of the person who actually buying your product? I visited a furniture show recently and there was a bench that was beautifully finished but very poorly constructed from a structural standpoint. It won a prize. In my mind, it should have won nothing, because there was no way a person could have sat upon it without collapsing it. But, I look at things from a structural standpoint. The judges probably looked at things from an artistic standpoint and because of this, made their decision based on that.

Erik

I wish it were that cut and dry, but in my experience it's not always. Ever sell somebody a bandsaw who does a hack job of setting it up then calls to complain they got a lemon? I hope not, but I'd be supposed if the answer is no. I've made so many things for so many people over the years I forget most of them, things usually go smooth and without incident. Buts it's the pepper on the soup I remember....to quote my grandmother....those fruitcakes that in spite of all common sense blame anybody for the problem they caused because it's easier and maybe cheaper than accepting responsibility. It's these people you have to protect yourself against, they don't wear name tags unfortunately, they often look and behave just like regular people at the onset. And there are a disproportionately high number of them in the "I can finish it myself" camp.

they say a happy customer tells one or two people, an unhappy one tells 10, so while it's not technically the makers responsibility if the contract is honored, you may wind up with a disgruntled fruitcake bashing your business publicly, and there is a real cost to dealing with that.

[Grant Wilkinson]

I'm with you, Peter. When the client's friends stop by to see the kitchen and ask who did it, the client will not likely say, "oh, Peter did all the design, build and install, but we cheaped out and did the lousy finishing job". It will be, "Peter did it". The friends walk away thinking that they will never hire Peter, who clearly does not know how to finish.

I appreciate that pros need to get work to put food on the table, but surely your rep is worth something, too. I don't envy any of you trying to balance that. (I'm a hobbyist only)

My woodworking teacher and good friend frequently told me that what the client first sees is the finish. All the great joinery and installation goes for nothing if the finish is bad. I've done what I believe can be called some pretty good furniture pieces, but until very recently, my finishing skills - or lack of them - really took away from my hard work.

[Jesse Busenitz]

Great stuff guys. Like I stated earlier, I just went out on my own less than a year ago and am trying to build a client base, so I feel like I really need to watch what I do right now. Although a single dissatisfied customer can wreck havoc in a established company too.

[Jim Dwight]

I agree with the comments of questioning their plan and that if they need you to build it for them, letting them finish it is questionable. I make furniture and other things out of wood as a hobby. I've made half a dozen bedroom sets, 3 breakfast tables with chairs, one complete kitchen, and various tables. A few interior doors too. I have a Fuji mini-mite 3 but will admit I am not a professional at any of this. I hire a contractor sometimes but I don't always let them do everything. On an addition last year I did all the painting, the electrical finish (including a heat pump hookup), the trim work, and the insulation and drywall work in one area. The contractor I used I've used before. He is bad about the punch list so I cleaned it up for him both times (but I got paid for it). I really disliked his drywall guys. They made a huge mess every time they came and needed everything marked for them - very little quality control. There are "professionals" that are so hot too.

I don't think I'm a typical purchaser of your services but there are others like me out there. I am probably not as good as you are at many aspects but I can show examples of why I think I can do things. It usually pays not to pre-judge and ask some questions. I also consistently tell the truth about who did what.

[Erik Loza]

...Ever sell somebody a bandsaw who does a hack job of setting it up then calls to complain they got a lemon?...

I get setup questions from at least 50% of my customers (which I am always glad to help with) but only very rarely is it "that" type of conversation. The reason for that is because I go out of my way to be as clear as possible during the sales process about what the customer's expectations ought to be. That is for both of our benefits.

For example (not so much for bandsaws but definitely for combination machines...), folks will often ask during the research phase if the pricing includes setup or tranining since they probably have never done this before. My response is that the price they pay includes verbal support or possibly a site visit if they are local to me. However, we are glad to arrange that with a professional tech if they are willing to pay for that. Statistically speaking most don't. If I ever got a call from a customer who took the line of, "I paid all this money and shouldn't have to lift a finger" (which never really happens), I would just say, "Hey, we had this conversation, right? I'd be glad to arrange a tech visit now as long as you are willing to pay for it". It's not about being right or not offering good service, it's being clear in expectations on both sides.

When I first got into sales, like all new guys, you are desperate to close that deal so you do the rookie mistake of promising everything on the front end without ever listening to what the customer's expectation actually is. Because you are so scared you are going to lose the deal if you say "no" or if you start setting boundaries. Then, you DO get customers who call because it's not a Sam Maloof chair magically popping off their table the first time.

For my own sanity and also for the user experience of the customer, I find that the best thing you can do is have a conversation with them, ask them what their expectations (be those looks, timeline, budget, or all the above), and then give them several options. Which is different than saying, "I won't do that". Then, the customer chooses one of the options you have put on the table and everyone is happy. Just what works for me.

Erik

[Erik Loza]

And also, you're not going to make 100% of customers happy. That's not to say it should not be your goal and that you should not strive for it but statistically, it's not going to happen and you need to be aware of that possibility.

Minimax USA got sued once by a builder who bought a line boring machine from us. Suit alleged faulty product, something like a $40K job he had to re-do because all the shelf pins were falling out. Come to find out that he was using cheap bits that were slighty over-sized and basically, drilled all the holes too big. You think a guy who sues you for $40K is going to say, "Sorry, you were right. It was my fault"?

As a business person, what you need to focus on is delivering a product that meets your claims, at the quoted price. If you let yourself be paralyzed by "what if's", about what someone will do with it after they pay you for it, your odds of succeeding in the marketplace are greatly diminished. Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik

[Roy Harding]

This is an interesting thread. Allow me to clarify my earlier statement.

I have two main streams of work - one stream is high end custom furniture, which I mostly do in the winter months. The other is a local Farmers Market, which I use to experiment on different techniques I'm interested in (I often say that I sell my mistakes at the Farmers Market). The Farmers Market is often a source of small jobs - a bookshelf, a kitchen island/cart, and so on. I don't do cabinets, and I don't do built-ins (except for my wife). I also don't do repairs, or re-finishing projects.

At the Farmers Market, people are often interested in finishing their own pieces. That's fine with me. Before we agree on a price, I ascertain their intentions (paint grade, staining, varnishing, what have you). I then deliver their unfinished project with a written "suggested finishing schedule". That's the end of my involvement.

It's important to note that I operate under two different names for the two different markets. My furniture customers are generally not aware of my Farmers Market activities, and vice versa - perhaps that paradigm explains my willingness to let customers finish their own "low end" projects that I build for them. (I hate the terms "high end" and "low end", but can't think of better terms to get my ideas across.)

I understand the objections folks have raised - the impact on one's reputation is indeed something to worry about.

[Roy Harding]

...

I wouldn't consider posting on this forum sufficient due diligence in making a business decision.

I'm in absolute agreement with this statement.

[eugene thomas]

I am currently making some kitchen cabinets for customer. She is going to do the finish herself but in talking to her and going out to her house could tell she was up to the job. Kind of depends on the customer.

[Peter Quinn]

The reason for that is because I go out of my way to be as clear as possible during the sales process about what the customer's expectations ought to be. That is for both of our benefits.
For my own sanity and also for the user experience of the customer, I find that the best thing you can do is have a conversation with them, ask them what their expectations (be those looks, timeline, budget, or all the above), and then give them several options. Which is different than saying, "I won't do that". Then, the customer chooses one of the options you have put on the table and everyone is happy. Just what works for me.

Erik

Thats pretty much what I was saying in an earlier post, communication is critical. Its just not as simple as saying "Oh, sure I can do that, anything you want..." He needs to have that conversation. He may want to quote it both ways just so the client can see all the costs involved, perhaps provide a finish sample so they can see what they are passing on if they opt for the DIY route. I've seen a few would be DIY'rs opt for the pro finish when they see what they are getting and at what cost. I've seen a few people amazed at how good a brushed finish looks when done by professionals, such as on paint grade built-ins Its also possible the client is actually a very good finisher. It pays to be flexible and open minded, to a point. There are plenty of "makers" in my area at the top end of the game that would all but laugh at the suggestion that their work would be delivered raw and finished by the client or their agent. They have spent decades building a brand, it has real value that must be maintained. Its not unheard of in the industry to restrict your product to the hands of trained professionals. Look at corian, you can't buy that without a certification, there are finishes like that too, you need certification to buy them because the sellers don't want hacks doing bad work with their products and having the public develop an image of their quality based on shoddy craftsmanship. Same basic factors here, except Jesse is probably not as well financed as DuPont.

Can I buy a bandsaw from Minimax unfinished, spray it myself to save a few bucks, and apply the decals later? I asked the Chevy dealer when I bought my van, he said no, paint was a factory requirement, though I could order a a paint upgrade I could not get it raw. Just food for though.

[Erik Loza]

....Can I buy a bandsaw from Minimax unfinished, spray it myself to save a few bucks, and apply the decals later?...

Peter: NO!... Hahaha

When I worked for Felder, they used to offer custom colors of powder coat. The sales manager told me about some red and some pink machines. Went to Russia or something whacky like that.

Erik

[Peter Quinn]

Peter: NO!... Hahaha

When I worked for Felder, they used to offer custom colors of powder coat. The sales manager told me about some red and some pink machines. Went to Russia or something whacky like that.

Erik

I enquired about getting that sexy pearlescent grey/beige Cadillac paint featured on the high end model of the time that was parked in front when I bought my van....I drove in in a 20+ year old Isuzu trooper that the sales manager asked me to park in the next lot as it was scaring away customers....I was being flippant but to my surprise it was in fact available....IIR it added something like $11K to the cost....of a $20K cargo van! I opted out. Nice to know they would do it though!