Home project woes - Need help...

[Raymond Fries]

OK here is the story. Get a coffee, tea, water, or pop ( oh yeah maybe a beer) for the long haul...

Hopefully these pictures will tell the story.

There were taken on 04/26/2011 showing the window openings.
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On 4/27/2011 all of the windows were installed.

WindowWrap3.jpgWindowWrap4.jpgWindowWrap5.jpgWindowWrap6.jpgWindowWrap7.jpg

On 04/28/2011 all of the trim was installed.

WindowWrap9.jpg

From these pictures, can you tell if flashing was installed? Is flashing a part of standard practices or is this an option? Does it look like there were installed according to manufacturing instructions?


Will have to finish with next post as I ran out of pictures.

[Raymond Fries]

Continued...

Here are the rest of the pictures I took today. NOtice in the last one you can see the tape that was used to seal the window. Is this right?
WindowWrap11.jpgWindowWrap10.jpgWindowWrap12.jpgWindowWrap13.jpg

Today I used a watering wand to test where the water started coming in the windows. All of my testing has been on the 4 windows by where the PTAC was removed. After about 2 minutes of spraying close to the top of the window, it started leaking inside at the place where the ¼” paneling butts together. That means the sides are not sealed as well. When I first discovered it, the wand was above the window.

If this is sub-standard workmanship, do I have recourse if the contractor says he will not fix this because it is 4 years old? I agree with the feedback that this should not be caulked and to fix it right. What is right? Can these windows be sealed from the outside without removing the windows? I know nothing about how this should be fixed and do not want to be handed a shortcut because it is easy for someone else.

It now appears that the mini-split will have to be disconnected to get one of the trim boards off. The hole here keeps getting deeper and deeper. That will be expensive and should not be charged to me.

Thanks for all of the help here.

[Phil Thien]

Hard to be sure from the pics but it looks like there is no pan flashing on the openings. Pan flashing is the formed or rubber covering over the bottom of the opening, it protects the wood there because all the water that gets in is going to end up there, on its way elsewhere.

The window units are flush with the exterior trim, which doesn't offer a lot of possibilities for effective caulking. So who designed that addition? Did the builder do the design, or did you work with an architect? If the windows were held back even 1/2", you'd have a nice line you could caulk.

At this point, I'd be opening an interior wall around a window and seeing how soaked the opening is getting. If there is indeed no pan flashing, I'd remove and reinstall the windows, properly flashing everything. I'd also be adjusting the position of the windows in the openings, to better accommodate some caulk beads.

You might want to sign-up at the Fine Homebuilding forum and see if they can be some help.

I'm not a pro.

[Todd Burch]

I'm not a pro either, but I have installed a house full of windows before. I've been thinking about this more.

For a window, its rough opening, the water barrier, adhesive sealing tape, and the trim, there are multiple aspects working together to shed and prevent water from entering the wall and the building around the window, and other than the rough opening, they all come with instructions for how they are to be installed and applied.

Primarily, there is the window itself. The window needs to be installed (new construction) directly against the wood of the rough opening. Do haven't specified (or it you did, I missed it) what type of windows you have. I'll guess vinyl. The frame of a vinyl window is excellent at being impervious to water. The seams are welded together, and the installation fins on the window are placed in manner as to provide the proper exterior reveal (be that 5/8", 3/4", etc).

The windows that I am familiar with require sealant to be applied between the fin and the framing members. I used a liberal bead when I did mine. Then, I used screws to hold the window into the opening. A lot of installers will only use a few nails, or they use staples. Again, the instructions that came with the windows dictate the proper method for using sealant and fasteners. At this stage, water should not be able to penetrate the rough opening. Period.

After the windows are in, the wall's water barrier is applied. This could be tar paper (or building felt, depending on your locale - same thing) or a house-wrap type product. For either method, there is a proper amount of overlap between horizontal layers. At the windows, the water barrier should be (carefully) cut to cover the terminate in the windows trough. See picture.

SketchUpScreenSnapz057.jpg

Then, you tape around the window. The tape ensures water that does get inside the wall (and it shouldn't) past the siding and window trim, stays in the trough and is allowed to flow around the window in the trough and run out the bottom and down the wall between the siding and water barrier. From your pictures, it appears the windows were taped properly, from an overlap perspective (bottom first, then sides, then top). I can't see inside the trough though. The tape should adhere to the window fin, covering all nails/screws and extra holes not used in the fin for fasteners. Some manufactures of flashing tape say don't install the bottom piece.

So far, you have exterior grade sealant between the window fins and RO framing, you have a house wrap overlapping the fins, and then you have flashing tape, tying the house wrap to the window fin inside the trough. At this point, it should be air proof!

It will be interesting to learn where in the process something failed for your situation.

[Brian Elfert]

From the photos the windows look properly installed. I think even without flashing there shouldn't be leaks around the windows. Do you know where the water is actually coming in?

[Phil Thien]

Properly flashing a window.



There is no sill flashing that I can see.

Those are really flashed improperly. A lot of guys do it that way, but it doesn't make it proper.

I realize this is a commercial for DuPont building materials, but the concepts are the same no matter what vendor is used. And seeing as most products are knock-offs of DuPont's system, the DuPont instructions really set the standard.

[Phil Thien]

The 2nd video, the very first thing he says, the most important step, is getting the house wrap folded up and out of the way.

[Brian Elfert]

Isn't the Protectowrap in the photos the sill flashing in this case? In one of the photos it appears the housewrap was folded up above the windows. It appears this stuff was done right, but obviously something is wrong.

Thanks for the videos as I am just about to install a door and windows in my garage. I already viewed some videos last night, but the second one is great.

[Raymond Fries]

From the photos the windows look properly installed. I think even without flashing there shouldn't be leaks around the windows. Do you know where the water is actually coming in?

On the windows I tested, the water started coming in just below the rail on one of the four windows. So on one of these sets, the water is coming in along the side somewhere up top.

Good suggestion on manufacturing directions Todd. I found an Anderson PDF online. I plan to call anderson tomorrow and go through. the instructions with them as. I saw a drip cap and not sure of that pertains to my windows as I do not have one. for the leak I found it would not matter as it is on the stile somewhere.

I am wondering if they just did not get the flashing tape pressed down enough.

Good installation videos Phil. That flexwrap looks real nice.

[Neil Gaskin]

From the looks of the pictures the house wrap and window install looks mostly proper. I would prefer to see a piece of z-bar flashing going across the head of the windows. The hosue wrap was installed properly going on before the windows, at least according to every isntall manual and tech spec I've read. I've not seen a manufacturer recommend installing the windows and then wrap around them as mentioned above.

For what it's worth we stopped using Protecto Wrap a few years ago because it did not stick very well and looses adhesion.

[Phil Thien]

From the looks of the pictures the house wrap and window install looks mostly proper. I would prefer to see a piece of z-bar flashing going across the head of the windows. The hosue wrap was installed properly going on before the windows, at least according to every isntall manual and tech spec I've read. I've not seen a manufacturer recommend installing the windows and then wrap around them as mentioned above.

For what it's worth we stopped using Protecto Wrap a few years ago because it did not stick very well and looses adhesion.

The method described above for lifting the wrap and putting it over the flashing at the top of the window is in the documentation for the flashing system from DuPont (as well as others). The house wrap installation instructions refer you there when you get to windows, but only if you're using their flashing system.

I think the reality is, if you use a nice big bead of sealant around the sides and top of the window flange, laying it down right in line with the nail holes, you're going to prevent about 99.9% of the opportunities for leaking.

That is usually how I see it done around here.

I've seen construction where there is no flashing whatsoever, but they caulk under the flange in line with the nail holes, and then they caulk again making sure the flange to window is sealed well (I would not like to be the guy replacing the windows in 20+ years).

If you aren't going to caulk, I think you need to follow the instructions in one of the flashing system to a "t."

I'm curious what went wrong in this instance.

[Raymond Fries]

From the looks of the pictures the house wrap and window install looks mostly proper. I would prefer to see a piece of z-bar flashing going across the head of the windows. The hosue wrap was installed properly going on before the windows, at least according to every isntall manual and tech spec I've read. I've not seen a manufacturer recommend installing the windows and then wrap around them as mentioned above.

For what it's worth we stopped using Protecto Wrap a few years ago because it did not stick very well and looses adhesion.

Well maybe that is what happened here. I proved that the water is coming in on a stile close to the top rail. I cannot imagine that the installer did not press it down enough to stick. If the tape is defective, the contractor should be able to get the Protectowrap people to pay for it. I will take this back to the contractor.

Neil, have you ever had a claim for tape that lost adhesion? How did you determine that it lost adhesion? What brand do you use now?

What a mess!

Thanks again to all for all of the help here.

[Neil Gaskin]

I don't believe we've ever had a warranty claim that we determined was a result of tape failure, but we also caulk behind nailing fin.

I'll have to look, I can picture the case and the roll, but I can't remember the name of the tape we use off hand.

We had most problems with the tape in cooler/cold months than warm for what ever that is worth.

[Raymond Fries]

Colder weather makes sense for problems. Hopefully, this can get resolved without removing windows but I am ready to accept whatever it takes to get it fixed right.

[Neil Gaskin]

There shouldn't be a need to remove the windows. The trim likely needs to come off but this looks like it could be fixed with new sealant tape flashing and caulking.