[OP]
Contributor
Thanks guys for the reply's. Essentially we have priced ourselves out of being able to afford American made goods. Every week you read about someone going on strike demanding top wages, top benefits, top perks.. and in order for companies to provide that, the prices go out of reach for the average North American. Oh well..... I guess I'll just keep dreaming about my American Beauty...and keep buying lottery tickets....
[OP]
Contributor
Originally Posted by Doug Ladendorf
You're right Doug about the vintage machinery..... I have a Record/Coronet lathe that I bought about 30 years ago (I think it was around $1200.00 back then). It is made in the U.K. and still runs like new. I had some minor vibration recently which I got rid of with a bit of oil and a cleaning. I have never had to change a part on it. The belt and bearings have never given any trouble. It has a 12" swing over the bed but I can swivel the motor towards the front and do a 30" bowl although I haven't done one near that size yet.
Contributor
Barry,
Did you buy the Record/Coronet new or used? What would that $1200 be worth today? I'll bet it would be a lot more than the $1700 cost of the new Grizzly lathe!
Car prices have nearly tripled in that 30 years. Homes in our area have more than tripled. I would think your $1200 Coronet lathe would could cost +$3600 in 2015 dollars.
You can't shop for a tool with low price as a major factor and expect quality equal to equipment that cost 2-7 times more. It's a naïve, at best and an unreasonable expectation. No offense to anyone. $1700 for a Grizzly lathe compared to a +$10,000 American-made Robust or Canadian-made Oneway.....well $1700 is chump change in comparison. It is unreasonable to think you are going to get the same quality.
There is no magic wand for manufacturers in China that allows them to sell to importers and bring equal quality equipment to the Americas for a small fractional price. The magic wand doesn't exist. You can get GREAT quality from Taiwan or China but you have to pay for it. Tighter specifications, more quality inspections, more rejects at the factory for quality shortcomings all cost money. There are no secrets for high quality manufacturing. It's more expensive.
Grizzly and similar competitors are manufactured and sold to satisfy a different market,a different price range, than the Oneways, Robust etc. Most of us who buy these product lines either couldn't afford to buy American, Canadian or European made products or can afford it but can't justify the additional expense. Most of us who buy tools in this price range are hobbyists not professionals.
Often the most noticeable difference between the more expensive equipment and the lessor expensive equipment is fit and finish. Fit and finish to me has less value than most. My tools are meant to be used. I don't have a tool museum, I have an amateur's woodworking shop where I try to improve my skills on a regular basis. I live in an arid climate so rust isn't a problem unless I spill coffee on one of my machines. Some people place more importance on fit and finish. That's fine but fit and finish is the most noticeable differences between the high end and low end market tools.
There are often other less noticeable differences. Higher quality, larger, different type bearings are not as readily noticeable but can be there. A better quality, better insulated motor is another sleeper that often goes unnoticed when we giddily read "3 HP- 3 phase" motor. Better quality grinding on machined cast iron surfaces can be another hidden difference. NOTE- I'm not saying this is true about any specific product. These are just potential hidden differences that cost more, aren't as readily noticeable but are reflected in a higher price.
To those who always say "Buy old iron".....some people want to spend their time woodworking not spend days, weeks and months searching for parts and fixing tools. Frankly, some people don't have the skills to do it. Professionally, I repaired equipment from radar to MR scanners for over 40 years. On my time, I want to work wood. Beyond that, I watch the local Craigslist and have yet to see used tools offered at a reasonable price.
Grizzly tools are a good bang for the buck. I have a G0490X jointer and a Grizzly combination disk/OSS sander. The fit and finish isn't the greatest but they both perform well. I also have European-made tools, American-made tools and other Taiwan-made tools. Grizzly has a history of good customer service within the manner that they operate their business. Your machine may arrive with a problem but they will deliver the parts necessary to remedy the situation with you providing the labor. Buyers need to be aware of that up front. And yet, I would guess a lot more of their machines deliver with no problems otherwise they wouldn't still be in business. Their tools are IMO a great bang for the buck.
Finally, so much of what seems to make a tool better is subjective. Turning on a PM-3520B may not be a good experience for you and yet, be very pleasurable for me. But, it's subjective. It's a matter of personal taste, a matter of personal opinion. There is no right or wrong. There is no morale high ground whether you buy a used machine, a new American made machine or a Grizzly made in Taiwan. The only thing important is that you are satisfied that you got your money's worth when you bought your machine and you enjoy using it.
And now I retire to my shop to continue building the table top for the new outfeed table for my table saw.
Last edited by Ken Fitzgerald; 06-09-2015 at 11:41 AM.
Ken
So much to learn, so little time.....
[OP]
Contributor
Ken.... I bought the lathe new at a woodworking show....
Contributor
Barry: I've worked for the last 30+ years as a marketing consultant to US manufacturers, and I can tell you that it's not labor that drives prices for domestic manufacturers. The reason North Americans can't afford American made goods has much more to do with the lack of expansion of pay, not that it is out of control. Real wages have been stagnant in this country for well over a decade now.The basic problem is the shareholder mentality that is rampant - the idea that we need to reward investors first. Investors should be way down the line after making certain the product quality is high and the workforce is paid. As long as CEO remuneration is tied to shareholder return the problem will only get worse.
American manufacturing only gets better and better. It is the markets that need to be strengthened. There is no competition in the quality of the product, so imports compete on price alone and let quality suffer. But as long as the buying public is underpaid for their labor the low quality, low price goods will dominate. Labor and demand are linked.
Member
The high end factories in china are paying under a dollar an hour, overtime and all. That is where a big chunk of our savings comes from. I suspect per unit percentage profit is higher all the way from manufacturer forward for made in china machines. The big savings are labor at less than one thirtieth of the cost of US labor, probably less than one fiftieth when all benefits and the cost per hour on the social system is calculated.
Another huge savings is material. As a general statement the material can be much lower quality even when claimed to be the identical alloy and heat treat. I don't know just how this comes to be, would be importers often find this out the hard way.
Something to know about ISO 9001, it has nothing to do with manufacturing quality. All it covers is the documentation of how something is made. If you are making something top quality, it nicely documents how that is made start to finish. If you are making crapola, it nicely documents how that is made start to finish.
My old light duty J head Bridgeport mill was awesome. Made in Bridgeport Conneticut best I recall it happened to be the same age I am and in far better shape. Everything on the machine was adjustable and once everything was tightened up and the adjusted out the machine worked to the same precision as the day it was made, maybe better because I placed far greater demands on precision than were required when it was new. This light duty machine is solider made than many machines that are supposed to hold up in a production environment today.
As someone else has mentioned, our needs have changed. Much of the old machinery needed to do what we want to do today is far larger than today's machine. It also uses a large three phase motor and large VFD's aren't cheap. Finally that old iron gains a lot of it's quality from huge amounts of deadening mass. A machine that may weigh a thousand pounds built today might easily weigh four to six thousand pounds if it was built 75-100 years ago. Takes up more space, needs a solider foundation under it, and it is harder to get in place.
In many ways I wish I could turn back the hands of time fifty or seventy-five years, but in truth I remember life fifty years ago and there were a lot of things that weren't so wonderful too.
People change, the world changes.
Hu
Contributor
I retired 12 years ago taking early retirement when the company I worked for offered I buyout package I couldn't refuse. The company pension and govt. pensions pay the bills but with the way energy and food prices are rising who knows for how long. I took up woodworking as a hobby after I retired and I suspect for many others here it is a hobby. When I started I bought a shop full of Busy Bee power tools. 1. I didn't know any better and 2. they were the only place within reasonable driving distance where I could walk in pick out what I wanted and take it home. All the larger power tools came unassembled in boxes and I was able to carry the pieces into my basement shop where I took the time to assemble them and set them up properly and they have served me well for 12 years now. I started turning about 5 years ago and not knowing how well I was going to like it bought a small Delta lathe. Worked great for pens and other small items but I quickly found out that the slowest speed was to fast for an out of balance bowl blank and it was pretty limited in the size bowl I could make. I wanted a larger lathe and it had to have variable speed so I started saving my nickels. (Have to save nickels in Canada they got rid of the penny) Other more important things kept getting in the way and it took over a year and I finally had enough to get the Busy Bee CX802, at the time it was on sale for $600 less than they are asking now. If I had held out for a Oneway, AB, or Robust I still wouldn't have a large lathe.
That being said there are things I will not compromise on, food being one of them. If it says produce of China it stays on the shelf. Household items like fans etc. if there is a Canadian or American made product I have and will pay double if need be.
Rick
I support the Pens for Canadian Peacekeepers project
Administrator
I remember a time when the only source available to purchase hobby woodworking machines was Sears. Every machine I owned when I started woodworking was a Craftsman model, there were no other machines available that I could find that a hobby woodworker could afford. When I found out about Grizzly Tools (from their first catalog) I ordered their 15" planner, it was a thousand dollars less in price than the 15" Delta planner of the day. Over the course of several years all my Craftsman machines were replaced from Grizzly catalogs. I still own my Grizzly planner today, the machine has been an amazing workhorse.
Most of the people who complain about foreign machines would not be woodworkers if not for imported machines. American manufacturers were never going to reduce their prices and for whatever reason they haven't to this day. Most are long gone from the marketplace. It's my opinion that the loss of American manufacturers is not because of their prices or their cost to manufacture and certainly not because of imported machines. The imports simply allowed hobby woodworking to flourish and grow simply because the lower cost opened the doors for those who would never have had the chance otherwise.
Guest
About $2,700 in the US according to the government published inflation numbers. So yes, a fair bit more than the new Grizzly is running.
At $1700 for a lathe with these specs I'm simply amazed that it exists at all and a little paint cleanup and tightening a few bolts seems like a pretty reasonable tradeoff (the tool rest post would make me a smidge grumpy but I know of folks who've had to do a whole lot more than that on $100k construction equipment so... yeah..).
My new 3250 was a lot more than that, was also made in Taiwan|China (differentiating is sometimes challenging unless you want to start examining the sourcing of every single part) and had a few things I was not 100% pleased with (notable the one pulley had some rough spots/apparent casting flaws - but didn't seem to matter functionally so I left it). However it runs well, and has made a whole lot of stuff so I didn't get to upset about it.
Member
There was a time in this country when everything was made in the USA and anything made in Japan was junk. Craftsman tools build their reputation on it as did lots of other companies.
What has happened is workers rights, regulation, taxation IOW government intrusion into business, and the result was what we've got. Businesses forced to go overseas in order to stay in business. Along with that comes the difficulties in maintaining quality product in a foreign country with different work ethics, standards of work, etc.
But business isn't innocent either. China CAN make decent steel, but....
And the tools made in Taiwan are not so bad, are they?
Bottom line is how else are we going to afford to live now that the government takes 1/2 our wages and redistributes it to the other 1/2 who don't/won't/can't find work?
Member
I have brought up some thoughts in other threads concerning quality equipment. I read through this thread and decided to wade in. in some cases the statement can be made "you get what you pay for" BUT that doesn't apply to MOST of the complaints about equipment. A flawless bedway surface compared to a bedway with some sand pits or unevenness has not one bit of effect on the outcome of a piece that one turns on a wood lathe. I also agree that to purchase something and then spend more time complaining about it rather than useing it is pretty dumb as well. send it back and wait till you can afford what you think is better rather than being an eore. If YOU haven't the skill to turn out a quality piece dont try to blame the machine! A wood lathe is a VERY simple piece of equipment but yet few seem to understand it. AC,DC, Inverter drives, centrifugal speed regulators, pulley arrangements even the typ of belt make subtle diferances from one machine to the next. Even it the same batch there can be difference from a bad capacitor or IGBT that will make a difference. If you buy a machine to look at and admire buy the most expensive most sought after machine and make sure that there is enough room for chairs so when others come over they can sit around and admire it over a cup of coffee or a beer whatever the case might be. If you are buying a machine to use for the enjoyment of the art it doesent make any diferance if the paint is scatched or there are a couple sand pits in the casting or for ALMOST all cases if the tailstock doesn't line up!! american made overpriced equipment or cheap imports are the choices complaining about the quality or cost changes nothing. IF we paid a higher wage across the board it would not make it possible for more to buy things, the prices would go up to equalize the same sales point. Thats what market analysts are for.
I like to turn wood. the other day my friends son got a wood lathe he is 16. he was excited until he got a couple catches. he must have been reading some posts in wood turning threads cause it was the lathes fault lol. it was to light, didn't have enough power, was the wrong color and came from China. I asked if I could show him a couple things.....suddenly he has a smile on his face loves to turn and the machine is "just fine".
Member
Blame the Chinese, but it is the American companies that provide the specs and all of the other requirements to the Chinese manufacturers. Even down to the paint colors and the logos, it is the American companies that are setting the "standards" we are getting.
Member
Carl, you can disagree, But you are also wrong. It's a simple fact of motor design. Firms use DC motors for "variable" speed based simply on cost. A DC motor, and controller, is cheaper then a variable speed AC motor, and controller.
Also three-phase AC motor simply provides more power, over a broader range of speeds, then a DC motor.
Even then, in-order to provide power across the entire speed range we turners use, the most lathe manufacturers ends up using two, three, etc speed ranges with pulleys.
Part of why the DVR motor (used in Teknatool lathes and ShopSmith-Mark7) can provide full power from 100 to 4000 rpms is it's unique use of 24 "phases" (it's not really 24 phases, but.... the DVR is a very interesting motor).
By way of background, I have a BS EE and worked for many years as the Lead Engineer for the US Navy in a large motor rebuild/repair shop (as in motors up to 1000 HP)
Making sawdust mostly, sometimes I get something else, but that is more by accident then design.
Member
Thank you Ralph for the information and it truly sounds like you know what your talking about. The only information I can supply is my own experience with my new 3 hp Laguna 2436 vs my old Jet 1642. The motor on the 2436 is whisper quiet and runs much much cooler than my Jet. Also the power at bowl roughing speeds (400 RPM) is amazing. If the 3 hp AC motor is more powererful than mine it must be awesome.
Contributor
And it is the price point that the American consumer can afford or is willing to pay that determines what specifications the American companies will specify. Having a higher quality, more expensive piece of equipment that the consumer can't afford taking up room on the showroom floor doesn't provide a profit. In fact, companies pay taxes on inventory.
Again...you have to remember that most of us at this website are hobbyists. If I was a professional woodworker, I would sing a different tune!
There are many factors that caused American companies to use offshore manufacturing to produce their products........tax laws......cost of labor........environmental regulations.....cost of materials... energy costs, and other elements caused it to be cheaper to manufacture products overseas.
The tools we are discussing are meant for a different price range....they cater to those who wouldn't justify or couldn't afford a North American manufactured product. Look at General, CA. To compete in the same price range, they adapted and presented the General International brand of tools.
When tools were still being manufactured in this country, the market became stagnant. There weren't enough people who could afford tools that cost as much as those made here. So, in an effort to keep the company alive, companies began using offshore manufacturing. The resultant cheaper products allowed a larger group of people to afford the tools they couldn't afford when the only option was more expensive US manufactured products.
And buying these products is good for the local economy. Take me for example. I would never have hired a local contractor($16,000) to build an empty shell for my standalone woodworking shop if I had to buy only higher priced US made tools. While I might be able to afford the more expensive tools, I wouldn't find it justifiable for a hobby. The contractor wouldn't have gotten the money. The local lumberyard wouldn't have made a profit. The local suppliers where I bought all the materials to finish the shop wouldn't have made a profit and I would have been tens-of-thousands of dollars $$$$$ richer today.
The reasons that this country drifted away from a manufacturing-based economy is more complex than most people realize. It doesn't matter where a product is made. If nobody can afford it, it won't sell or the seller will have to sell it at a loss. Either way, the company isn't profitable and eventually goes out of business.
Last edited by Ken Fitzgerald; 06-09-2015 at 4:56 PM.
Ken
So much to learn, so little time.....
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