Wire Edge

[Jerry Thompson]

Over the years reading about sharpening I have heard many times about getting to the wire edge. I have yet to experience this. I hand sharpen using water stones with the final one being 8k grit. I rub the back a couple of times on the 8k then strop. I have yet to feel a wire edge any time during my sharpening sequence. I have checked just before doing the back and no wire edge.
All of my shavings come out as fluffy as I want. Using my shooting board on end grain with a BU LA jack results in curly shavings and no end tear out.
So I have stopped feeling for this elusive edge and have just plugged along. Am I missing anything? I am happy so that is what counts as far as I am concerned.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Of course you are missing something; not sure what, but I am sure just the same

Although I have felt the wire edge, I am generally not able to feel this elusive wire edge on high very fine stones. Then again, I don't generally feel for it. Perhaps I am stopping too soon. Especially on the very fine stones, I expect that the wire edge is so fine you won't feel it.

I have often wished that I could find a local who was super well versed in this to have them

1. Show me this elusive wire edge
2. Evaluate my work to tell me how poorly (or otherwise) I am doing.
3. Show me what really sharp means!

I have noticed that what I used to think was sharp, I now consider just mostly of sharp.

Sadly, of the people I know, I generally produce the sharpest edge; but I don't have any friends who are woodworkers.

[ian maybury]

Seems to me there's a lot of variables around wire edges. It's hard to be certain of what's going on, or to have seen how it plays out in all situations.

Softer and especially stainless or vanadium alloy steels produce a heavy wire edge, well tempered carbon or a good A2 much much less. Coarse stones/light low speed grinding as on a diamond disc on a WorkSharp produce a heavy wire edge. Heavy pressure on the stone seems to cause more of a wire edge than light pressure (?), and seems less effective at removing it - it presumably bends what in essence is a microscopically thin foil up out of contact.

Light contact seems to reduce wire edge formation/turn less of the edge away from the stone, and to keep it in better contact with the stone so that it can be thinned/reduced. Progressing through finer stones seem to see each remove the previous heavier wire edge, and replace it with its own. They get very fine on fine stones, often hard to see.

My instinct is for this reason to finish with light pressure on each stone. It feels that done that way the wire edge gradually reduces so that by something like 12,000 it's not obvious to the eye. I've work to do in this regard, but it's likely worth getting a loupe (ahem - using the one i have) or whatever so that developments at the edge at each stage become familiar and can be used for guidance. It's probably the best indicator of what's going on, while just blindly following a procedure has always got to leave open the risk of problems as a result of some small variation in procedure etc.

I guess (?) there's always still going to be something left there, if only because i seem to get a slightly different and more consistent feel after a light finishing buff of the finished edge on a white fibre polishing disc (with no abrasive) on the top of the WorkSharp - even after 12,000 grit. Seems likely that stropping does something similar - but probably removes quite a bit more metal/takes over from earlier in the honing process. (microscope photos of sharp edges tend to be a bit discouraging - not much like the smooth surface we expect)

Not sure how it goes with hand sharpening, but given the pretty much certainty of a certain amount of rocking going on it may be that wire edges get knocked off fairly quickly. (?)

A dubbed face or bevel won't produce any wire edge - because the extreme end of the edge isn't actually in contact with the stone. I've once or twice found (when the tool didn't cut so well) that I still had a tiny wire edge on what I thought was a finished chisel - presumably the result of not cutting the bevel back far enough to fully remove it, or maybe as a result of some very tiny change in honing geometry lifting it off the stone. (my chisels are Japanese sharpened single bevel - and i use a honing guide)

[Kees Heiden]

With waterstones the burr is very real after honing the bevel on a 1000 stone. After the 8000 I can't feel it at all.

On oilstones the burr is much more pronounced, even after a fine polishing stone like my translucent Arkansas, the burr is detectable and not only on the face side of the blade but also on the bevel side! It takes some light handed back and forth to remove it, and the strop is used too.

I use the burr all the time to know that I actually honed the bevel up to the very edge over the entire width. I feel with the meaty part of my index finger top, gliding over the face of the blade with very light pressure over the edge. For me it is a very different feeling from when the burr isn't there yet.

Without the burr I would feel naked in my sharpening efforts.

This is all not very helpfull probably, but try to continue honing the bevel until a somewhat coarse stone until you can feel it too.

[Zach Dillinger]

With waterstones the burr is very real after honing the bevel on a 1000 stone. After the 8000 I can't feel it at all.

On oilstones the burr is much more pronounced, even after a fine polishing stone like my translucent Arkansas, the burr is detectable and not only on the face side of the blade but also on the bevel side! It takes some light handed back and forth to remove it, and the strop is used too.

I use the burr all the time to know that I actually honed the bevel up to the very edge over the entire width. I feel with the meaty part of my index finger top, gliding over the face of the blade with very light pressure over the edge. For me it is a very different feeling from when the burr isn't there yet.

Without the burr I would feel naked in my sharpening efforts.

This is all not very helpfull probably, but try to continue honing the bevel until a somewhat coarse stone until you can feel it too.

+1 to everything Kees said here, although I cannot speak of my own experience with waterstones as it is almost non-existent.

The wire edge is, in my opinion, a fundamental sign that you're doing the job properly.

[ian maybury]

Something of a PS to the above. I forgot to mention that i've developed a habit of wiping a blade sideways along the cutting edge right at the end after a few light pressure finishing strokes on each stone. It's not the easiest with a honing guide on, but it's do-able. After finishing on the 12,000 grit i remove the blade from the guide and give it a few sideways wipes freehand on the same stone (balanced on the bevel, but pressing down right at the cutting edge) before the quick polish with the buffing wheel on the WorkSharp mentioned before.

Can't be certain, but it seems like the sideways wipe and the pressure right at the cutting edge help to clean up any remaining wire edge.

[Archie England]

That wire edge is the burr. At lower grits, it's easier to pull and note. At higher grits, the burr is so thin that it feels "wire like." At 10k and above, that wire-like burr is so small that it breaks off on the first cutting action. Perhaps that's why you don't feel it. I've noticed that the wire edge easily bends over when pulling my fingers off the blade edge--but I do feel it. Often, I'll use the leather strop to remove that thin edge; so,stropping is a good way to deburr (but not for the lower grits).

One test I normally use to determine if the blade is ready is to pare SYP end grain. Tiny scratches reveal I had left the burr edge (or haven't gotten it sharp enough), but this edges breaks off quickly once paring begins. The better I've sharpened, the faster it breaks.

[Jerry Thompson]

I am just going to keep on doing as I have and the wire edge is not going to be a concern of mine. The proof in my sharpening technique is what come off of the plane. My smoother is a delight to use and I love the super thin shaving it produces.
Thanks to everyone. If I find the edge I will post the discovery.

[Stanley Covington]

What Ian said.

Seems to me there's a lot of variables around wire edges. It's hard to be certain of what's going on, or to have seen how it plays out in all situations.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

With waterstones the burr is very real after honing the bevel on a 1000 stone. After the 8000 I can't feel it at all.

I was testing while cutting some dovetails in soft pine and while touching up the blade on med high stone and the 16000, I felt nothing, and they were clearly very sharp. I let my 9 year old test the blade on some of my knives. She asked about the chisels and I said "ummm, no, these are much sharper than the knives".