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Thread: Will West System or System 3 epoxy stop wood movement in my refrigerator panels?

  1. #1

    Will West System or System 3 epoxy stop wood movement in my refrigerator panels?

    I have a design conundrum with the raised panels I plan on putting on a SubZero refrigerator. Most custom panels in these refrigerators have one maybe two panels and because of this few joints i.e. lots of large pieces. So when a handle is attached to the stile of a panel the pulling force is spread out over more area. My design incorporates comparatively many more panels and rails in the area of the pull than most designs and I'm concerned that years of opening the doors will eventually pull the assembly apart. My design with handles placed is below.

    I should mention that when custom panels are used in a SubZero or similar refrigerator they are actually part of a three panel sandwich. A 1/16 - 1/8" thick panel (the spacer panel) is sandwiched between the decorative raised panel assembly and a 1/4" thick backer panel. The 1/4" backer panel is captured in a metal frame, the spacer panel between that and the decorative panel is to allow for the thickness of the frame so the decorative panel is not interfered with by the frame. I have attached an illustration below.

    My knowledge of the epoxies mentioned in my title is that they encapsulate the wood (if painted on all 6 sides) and eliminate moisture from moving in or out of the wood cells. This should presumably prevent wood movement as that is related to moisture changes.

    If I were to incorporate epoxy into the assembling of the panels, rails and stiles would this not both glue them up but also keep the wood from moving? The benefit beyond that is that by epoxying the whole sandwich of panels I can create a solid panel for the refrigerator door. Of course the panels would no longer be floating but again if epoxy prevents movement then is a floating panel critical?

    Am I off base here? What important facts am I missing?

    Subzero cabinetry handle closeup.jpg Subzero cabinetry 3:4.jpg
    Screen Shot 2015-06-16 at 8.02.38 AM.png

  2. #2
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    A floating panel is critical. That's why this type of door was created. Otherwise the panel will crack as it shrinks and/or break the rail-stile joint as it expands. Unless you coat the entire assembly in epoxy to completely encapsulate it, there will still be exposed wood to transfer moisture.
    Last edited by J.R. Rutter; 06-16-2015 at 9:26 AM.
    JR

  3. #3
    Rule #1 of woodworking: Wood moves.

    You're better served to allow for it than to try to fight the nature of wood itself - it almost always wins.
    Jason Beam
    Sacramento, CA

    beamerweb.com

  4. #4
    A design like this is actually good from a wood movement standpoint. The panels are small so the amount of movement of each panel will be small.

    I would not use epoxy on it, however for a finish or on the panels. It would be OK on the joints but I'd probably use Titebond 3 because it's cheaper, easier to use, and fully adequate as long as your joints are tight. I like to finish all surfaces on panels even for interior doors because the wood moves and can expose an unfinished edge. On an exterior door, I would be worried about moisture in an unfinished panel. Normal polyurethane or varnish is a pretty good moisture barrier and will slow moisture movement. I would use it to seal things up (leaving it out of the joints). You can do it prior to assembly.

    If you finish the panels and frame edges prior to assembly, I think this door will work well for you.
    Last edited by Jim Dwight; 06-16-2015 at 11:09 AM.

  5. #5
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    I would not glue the panels solid, but yes, West system will "Almost" eliminate the seasonal movement.

    On occasion I have to build something designed by someone that does not understand wood and I use West System to control excessive movement. But it will still move to some degree.

    One common example is doors with dissimilar finishes on inside/outside.

  6. #6
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    Any way to anchor the pulls through the panels to the unit itself, eliminating strain on the panel? Seems like they would engineer for this as opening big doors under a bit of a vacuum would be a lot of strain on any panel, not just wood.
    Brian

    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger or more complicated...it takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." - E.F. Schumacher

  7. #7
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    As stated above, small panels will move less than large panels. But DON'T think that epoxy will magically eliminate movement. Let your panels float!

    (See Bruce Hoadley's famous "Understanding Wood" --- an academic, experiment-based approach to wood science. No known finish will prevent wood movement)

    I've installed panels on a lot of Sub-Zero's over the years--- a good connection between backing panel and finish panel will ensure a solid handle-to-door connection. I use glue and screws here.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Welsh View Post

    Am I off base here? What important facts am I missing?
    Can I be honest? I think you are not only off base but in the wrong park. I have no idea what you are talking about, and I do this for a living. Three panel sandwich? What is all that about? I've made a lot of fridge panels, and a lot of sandwiches, but never both at the same time. In your drawing the door panels are at there base a 5 piece frame an panel system. The handle attaches to a long stile. All that architecture in the field will distribute the movement and help to stiffen the stiles, not weaken them assuming your cope and stick is good. And what any of that has to do with letting the panels float I can't figure out. The frame creates the strength, the panels are along for the ride. Epoxy is a nasty mess to deal with, I wouldn't unleash that on a stain grade frame and panel system in my worst nightmare, plus it looks plastic and is plastic. If you are leaving the fridge out on the porch at your lake house on lake Ontario the epoxy might be a good idea, otherwise, not so much. It is my considered opinion that you should keep it simple and don't over think this.
    "A good miter set up is like yoga pants: it makes everyone's butts look good." Prashun Patel

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Quinn View Post
    Three panel sandwich?
    Peter-- the three-panel sandwich is the Sub-Zero manufacturer's recommendation for a method of installing a 3/4" thick door panel assembly without exposing the metal trim at the edges. One CAN skip the sandwich and rabbet the perimeter of the assembly and tuck it into the metal trim, but the sandwich allows the metal trim to be hidden from the front. It is strictly an installation issue; has nothing to do with the structure of the panel assembly itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Quinn View Post
    And what any of that has to do with letting the panels float I can't figure out.
    When I mentioned letting the panels float, I was referring to standard frame-and-panel design: the frame is glued together, the panels are not glued in; they float.

    I think the OP was considering epoxying everything together. I was recommending against. Still am.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Miner View Post
    When I mentioned letting the panels float, I was referring to standard frame-and-panel design: the frame is glued together, the panels are not glued in; they float.

    I think the OP was considering epoxying everything together. I was recommending against. Still am.
    Me too. I had to check the book on the sub zero panel, we've always just made a rabbited and kerfed molding to wrap the back and catch that panel attachment flange, guess I never though of it as a "spacer panel and backer panel", but it achieves the same thing. I'm still saying skip the epoxy bath, let it all float, make a good accurate frame and panel and it will last as long as the fridge.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 11-08-2017 at 8:51 PM. Reason: fixed quote tagging
    "A good miter set up is like yoga pants: it makes everyone's butts look good." Prashun Patel

  11. #11
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    Just for the record....we epoxy a boat load of "stuff" around here(our shop),to include traditional recurve and longbow limbs.Will spare all the details but I reckon you could call a bow limb a "sandwich"?There's two pces of fibreglass on top of two wood cores,this is in the simplest form,lots more to it than this.Anyway,these are epoxied together and then finished in an epoxy clear coat.

    And we can still feel the "action" of the limb change with the environment......Dry,high sky day and they're faster.Wet,or humid conditions and they get a bit doggy(slow).We have no other options,and not really complaining as it(epoxy)is a daily thing here.........But,you will still see the effects of the climate.Not always in "movement",sometimes it's felt,and sometimes,how this technically affects other parts within that structure.

    Another example is "bedding" wooden rifle stocks with epoxy.It's the relationship between cured epoxy and wood,and metal that needs to understood.Without a 10 page manifesto or years of experience....it's hard to put into words.This is from the practical side....not so much the chemical side.Chemists rarely use their own products,instead relying on feedback from someone else(an oversimplification,just sayin).

  12. #12
    I've done plenty of these panels. You can use 3/8" thick mdf for your back panel and rabbet the edges to act as the spacer, but you'll have to bring the thickness down to .350 to keep it a nice tight fit. or you can rabbet the back of the finished panel to achieve the same effect (this is the easiest method). Either case, glue the backer (and spacer panel) to the finished panel only on the stiles and rails, you can screw or staple it at this point. leaving the panels to float. Ideally you want the screws for the handle to go through the backer panel as well, but you'll have to counter sink them to get them below the surface, and you might have to get some longer screws as a lot of hardware doesn't allow for an extra 3/8". You won't have to worry about a thing!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian W Smith View Post
    .Chemists rarely use their own products,instead relying on feedback from someone else(an oversimplification,just sayin).
    This is one of the reasons that I use West System over other brands, the Gougeon Brothers were boat builders first, and still are.

  14. #14
    Stuart, I think you're over thinking things here a bit. I would not coat it in epoxy unless I had to.

    For a design critique, I would make the top rail of your side panels taller to match the combination of the top rail of the face and the top rail of the door, plus something for the margin between the top of the door and the bottom of the top rail. That way your panels and mid rails on the sides will line up with the panels and rails of the doors. I personally would horizontally flip the layout of the side panels as well, but that's purely an opinion.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    Stuart, I think you're over thinking things here a bit. I would not coat it in epoxy unless I had to.
    It was my mistake in the original post to imply I was going to coat the entire piece in epoxy. If I will use epoxy at all it will be to glue the panel assemblies to the plywood backing. Only the rails and stiles will be glued, the individual panels will be allowed to float.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    For a design critique, I would make the top rail of your side panels taller to match the combination of the top rail of the face and the top rail of the door, plus something for the margin between the top of the door and the bottom of the top rail. That way your panels and mid rails on the sides will line up with the panels and rails of the doors. I personally would horizontally flip the layout of the side panels as well, but that's purely an opinion.
    Thanks for your input. Let me explain my design choices. To your first concern with the front design elements lining up with the side panel elements, I can see why most people would immediately favor that. It is what seems to make sense. You and others concerned with with this aspect of my design need to understand that my intention in this project is to achieve as best as possible the illusion that this is an 18th or early 19th century Spanish Colonial armoire. In researching those pieces I began to notice that side panel designs were often either very simple compared to the front design or they were a repetition of the front EXCEPT they did not mirror the design in alignment. Quite often the design did not take into account the fact that on the door facade there are in effect two top rails, those being the structural rail of the carcass and the top rail of the doors. They simply used the same design elements and stretched them the over the entire height of the piece. See below. Concerning you final comment...I'm not sure why you are advocating flipping the side panel design horizontally. As for my reasoning, I prefer not to have a similar panels adjacent to each other in respect to the association of the side panel assembly where it meets the front panel assemblies. In what I understand you are suggesting, when viewing the enclosure from an angle, you would be viewing both the side and end panels. In the case of the bottom row of panels and moving from the rear around to the front that would yield a pattern of One Tall panel, then two stacked panels, then (moving around the corner) two more stacked panels then one tall and so on. I prefer to maintain the pattern of alternating arrangements. To each his own!

    Screen Shot 2017-11-08 at 11.33.11 AM.jpgScreen Shot 2017-11-08 at 11.29.41 AM.jpgScreen Shot 2017-11-08 at 11.32.34 AM.jpg

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