Wooden Ladder Shop

[paul cottingham]

Seriously, give me a rung made of rived wood anytime over metal or fibreglass. I would trust it more.

[Mel Fulks]

We are arguing about ladders made of wood. Step back a minute and look at this from afar.[/QUOTE]
Unless you are on a ladder of ANY type.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

We are arguing about ladders made of wood. Step back a minute and look at this from afar.

Unless you are on a ladder of ANY type.[/QUOTE]

Now that's funny!!!

I will say, I was surprised at the 15 year acclimation allowance for the fir. Am I wrong, or is that a bit longer than necessary? Not being sarcastic- that's an actual question. I sure would love to have some.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah, I thought that 15 year acclimation deal was a bit of unneeded embellishment. It is possible to get fine quality kiln dried 12/4 fir. Even in this east coast town we have a good supplier; they actually buy it green and get it kiln dried somewhere else. Some of us are having trouble with our quote boxing system when posting,is it broken? Process changed?

[Phil Thien]

Yeah, I thought that 15 year acclimation deal was a bit of unneeded embellishment. It is possible to get fine quality kiln dried 12/4 fir. Even in this east coast town we have a good supplier; they actually buy it green and get it kiln dried somewhere else. Some of us are having trouble with our quote boxing system when posting,is it broken? Process changed?

It works fine but if the tags get screwed-up during composing/editing of a post, subsequent quotes will continue the problem.

You biffed it in post #18.

We forgive you.

[Mel Fulks]

Phil, thanks for explanation and demo.

[Stew Denton]

Jim,

Thanks for posting this. The truss type construction of the ladders is quite interesting, as was pointed out above. I would love to know more about it.

Phil, I think it is in the "Glen L" marine book on wooden boat building, that the statement is made that plywood has a much higher strength to weight ratio than does fiberglass. I believe the author is a marine engineer. I do know that in that or a similar book that the statement was definitely made. Plywood and DF are not the same thing, but I would bet the DF is more ridged than is the fiberglass. It may also have a stronger strength to weight ratio as well. Just a thought.

I have used aluminum, fiberglass, and wooden ladders, but it has been a long time since I used a wooden ladder. If my memory serves me well, I believe that the wooden ladder is the stiffest and least prone to flexing and twisting of the three types I have used.

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

To me a fire department using wooden ladders seemed it might be of interest. Not sure if they want kiln dried wood for this use. There are some writings saying kiln dried wood is different than air dried wood.

San Francisco not only has wind to think about. Sometimes the winds can be pretty bad. Ask any old SF Giants fan about watching balls that should have been home runs being blown back to the field for a rather strange out having the defensive fielder catching a long fly ball with their back to the plate.

Aluminum is out in San Francisco due to low hanging high voltage trolly wires all over town.

Maybe it is just a tradition that has held its ground. Maybe in the long run having a ladder repair facility is less costly than always buying replacement ladders.

Many years ago the California Highway patrol thought they would save money by switching from Harley Davidson motorcycles to a less expensive motorcycle from Japan. The savings proved to not be real. They cost more to maintain and the resell value was way below what a used CHP Harley could bring. They switched back until the Japanese motorcycles caught up in quality, reliability and value after they had been used for a few years.

It is easy to say something is a waste of money while sitting at a keyboard without having all the factors involved.

Maybe they are spending a bit more than necessary. But it does keep a few people employed and makes for another unique feature in a unique city.

jtk

[george wilson]

We had a maintenance man hurt pretty badly when his fiberglass ladder shattered. I do not trust OLDER fiberglass. Old epoxy gets progressively more brittle. It may not stand years of age as well as wood. Certainly wood will stand up to HEAT from NEARBY fires better than fiberglass. Aluminum-out due to power lines,as mentioned. And,aluminum can get annealed and fold up if gotten too hot from a nearby fire.

Do you all know that a building with wooden trusses in the roof will stand against collapsing longer than a steel trussed roof?

Don't you guys thing that the long experienced SF fire dept. has thought of all these things? I'm sure they have arrived at the wood for sound reasons,even if they are in California!

[Phil Thien]

Don't you guys thing that the long experienced SF fire dept. has thought of all these things? I'm sure they have arrived at the wood for sound reasons,even if they are in California!

San Francisco is hardly the only city dealing with hilly terrain and low-hanging high-voltage, and there are certainly far windier cities. And yet other fire departments around the country (there are over 30,000 of them, BTW) use aluminum or fiberglass.

So just to put the #'s in perspective, thirteen fire departments use wood. Twelve of them are in California. There are an estimated 30,052 fire departments in the U.S. That means .0004% use wood. That is four ten-thousandths.

I've been to San Francisco. It is pretty unique, it ain't THAT unique.

[paul cottingham]

I agree with George. Because you are dealing with a persons life, and the lives of people they are rescuing, I'm sure the SFFD has damn good reasons for continuing to use these ladders. And despite all our arguments and screeds, I suspect that they will continue to do so.
And good for them. They are keeping a form of craftsmanship and tradition alive, and I strongly suspect they are saving money while they are at it. I seriously doubt they are using wooden ladders for the sole purpose of wasting tax payers money!

[Jim Koepke]

While looking around the internet on this a Popular Mechanics headline says it all:

These ultra-durable tools are saving lives

Another article at:

http://gizmodo.com/inside-san-franci...are-1552279252

Said some fire departments would like to switch back to wood but the expense would be too high due to their only being two makers of wooden ladders in the U.S. and one of them is the San Francisco fire department's shop.

Why Wood?

Wood is resilient in ways which aluminum—now standard for fire department ladders—can't even compare. "You know if you take an empty coke can and bend it three or four times and it tears really easy? That's what aluminum ladders will do," Braun says. "They have a seven to eight year lifespan, after which they need to be replaced."

Wooden ladders, on the other hand, can last indefinitely. "You can stress wood right up to its failure point a million times; as long as you don't go beyond that, it will come right back to where it was. They can be involved in a fire for a pretty long time; after that, it's just a matter of sanding off the top coat of material then inspecting the wood. If it's good we'll re-oil it, revarnish it, and put it back in service."

jtk

[Larry Edgerton]

I would much rather work on a wood ladder all day than anything else. Much easier on the knees as you foot can rotate and just feels better. I have to supply ladders with the appropriate safety stickers for employees but if I am working alone I use wood. I gave up on the wood extension ladders as I got older, but just because they are too heavy for me these days. Much more stable to work on than fiberglass or aluminum.

[Phil Thien]

While looking around the internet on this a Popular Mechanics headline says it all:

Another article at:

http://gizmodo.com/inside-san-franci...are-1552279252

Said some fire departments would like to switch back to wood but the expense would be too high due to their only being two makers of wooden ladders in the U.S. and one of them is the San Francisco fire department's shop.

The guy that said some fire departments would like to go back to wood but can't was from the San Francisco Fire Dept. Ladder Shop. Hardly an impartial source.

And BTW, the comment in the article about aluminum ladders needing to be replaced after seven years is pretty funny. I know roofing contractors that use their ladders every single day, for years on end. Their ladders see far more use than any fire department ladder would ever see. And they last just fine.

[Jim Koepke]

Even though some have expressed their enjoyment in learning about the San Francisco Fire Department's ladder shop, there comes a point where one might feel regrets over trying to share such a concept with others.

There is always someone trying to tear down an otherwise wonderful endeavor of craftsmanship.

Maybe I should give up trying to make quality products by hand and tell people to head off to Walmart or Ikea. After all, it might keep them from "wasting money" on frivolous potting benches, hand made spoons and honey dippers.

jtk