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Thread: Wood Warping After Resawing

  1. #31
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    Hi Allan. Length warning - only for those interested in the topic. Reading some of the Gene Wengert and USDAFPL material it seems as though the position is pretty clear- and the causes of stress/case hardening in wood are well understood. Going back at least to the 60s, and probably much further. This is another long one - it's an attempt to briefly summarise what's going on. Important to go to the original documents if working in this area - no guarantees here.

    The problem in a nutshell seems to be that either due to operating error, or cutting corners/skimping kiln operators don't always properly equalize or condition wood - with the result that it can end up highly stressed.

    Wood ends up stressed after kilning because of the moisture gradient that develops during the drying process. As in the outer skin of the wood dries first and tries to shrink, but is prevented from doing so by the still wet and swollen core. This causes the outer shell to 'take a set' in the 'stretched' condition. The core subsequently dries and forces the stretched outer shell to contract around it. Which causes the stresses that cause our problem. (known as case hardening) They can act lengthwise, or crosswise, and produce differing symptoms.

    The material below describes fairly simple tests for both types of stress. It involves cutting out a sample of wood to form a forked shape, and observing what direction it distorts in if any. i.e. properly equalized and conditioned wood should be stable. The trick is perhaps to use these tests before working the wood - because it's still possible to stress relieve (condition) it at this stage.

    The equalization step is very important, because unless all the wood in the kiln is very close to the correct moisture content the conditioning/stress relieving step won't work consistently. Equalising entails holding the kiln conditions very close to the required equilibrium moisture content (it's necessary to have moisture content numbers for the wettest and driest wood in the kiln to calculate this - the result is a very slow drying step compared to previously when the kiln was hauling ass to get the moisture out quickly), and waiting the time needed for all of the wood in the load to reach the correct moisture content. (the cost of this time is why it gets skimped)

    Once the wood is equalized its conditioned/stress relieved by raising the temperature, injecting steam and holding the wood in this condition for a period. Not all kilns or kiln types have this capability - another reason apart from the time why it gets omitted. This conditioning cycle reverses what happened during the main drying cycle - the outer shell ends up wet and hot, while the core is largely unaffected. The result is that the shell now relaxes from it's previously stressed condition, and assumes a state very similar to that of the core.

    Short paper describing the issues:
    https://www.extension.purdue.edu/ext...NR/FNR-132.pdf

    Gene Wengerts summary on Woodweb:
    http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...Condition.html

    The USDAFDL drying kiln manual which contains the information on cycles etc:

    http://www.esf.edu/scme/wus/document...torsManual.pdf

    The processes involved are decribed in the paper, the conditioning and equalizing process is fully described in the manual. (it sets out the kiln cycles and procedures) The temperatures are not that high - 160 - 180 deg F Going much higher seemingly can stablise the wood, but it reduces its strength by degrading the lignin - and causes colour changes.

    It's worth noting that the problem (presuming the wood is properly dried and has ended up with equal moisture content throughout) seems very much a consequence of fast/aggressive/commercial kiln drying - the steep moisture content gradient that causes the problem wouldn't otherwise arise. Air drying it seems largely avoids the issue - because it's a slow process, and because high night and morning humidity (not to mention wet weather) have a natural conditioning effect. (they wet the surface of the wood, and prevent in from becoming dry enough in advance of the core to stop stressing/case hardening from arising.

    Projecting tentatively from what the professionals have to say, it seems that most woods (but they vary a good bit in the time required) become quite plastic when heated. The steam/moisture seems to be used primarily as a means of applying the forces required to cause the wood to de-stress. Hard to know if it would work, but if wood has already been resawn and checks out as being of uniform moisture content and is very thin it might be worth trying heating it (for the time in the equalising schedule), maybe (?) wetting the concave sides and closely sticking it flat under pressure to get the stresses out.

    The problem with overdoing the wetting or steaming is that it may raise the moisture content of the wood high enough to become a problem. Against that maybe if it's sticked in warm and dry enough conditions (at the correct EMC) it might not take too long for it to dry again….
    Last edited by ian maybury; 06-23-2015 at 9:06 PM.

  2. #32
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    I found it, and can go to bed now......

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ragan View Post
    have any idea what issue this is in?
    The FWW article that has the much-quoted article is #232, April 2013; Title "Doors That Stay Flat".
    page 29.

    There is a picture of Steve Latta (who is going to debate him?) dropping some large pieces of wood on the floor to relieve the internal stresses.

    So there.

    I leave further discussion to the experts.

    (Ian, et al, I will have to read your most excellent stuff a little later-and I certainly will).
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by ian maybury View Post
    Hi Allan. Length warning - only for those interested in the topic. .

    the problem with all this, Ian, (although it is indeed fascinating) is that it's only describing how stresses can get inadvertently added to wood during the drying process. It doesn't help in any way with fixing a problem after resawing.

    I'm talking about the latter, which doesn't even involve internal stresses, once you've reached this point.

  4. #34
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    I have successfully removed bow from boards by placing them bow-side down on a thick grassy yard on a sunny day. The face that is laying against the grass will absorb some moisture, while the other face in the sun dries out a bit. Leave them there until they have bowed slightly the other way, and then take them into a climate controlled environment and stack/sticker/weight them and allow them to acclimate and redry for a week or two.

    The only time that I have seen a board that was case hardened on only one face of the board was when it was placed at the top of the kiln stack during the drying process.

  5. #35
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    Yes and no Allan. The suggestion is that there's two potential causes - either issues with moisture content (probably uneven/wetted or not properly dried) or internal stresses.

    There's potential as at the start for reaction wood/stresses built in during growth - but the hypothesis is that many of the stress problems we experience originate in the drying process.

    Either way it seems to be the territory that offers some pointers to processing methods that may help resolve the issue...

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by scott vroom View Post
    Len, when Jason asked if the top would be in a frame I'm guessing he meant attached to an apron. Exactly how will the top be attached to the table structure? An apron with figure 8's would easily flatten the top.
    I agree with Scott here. It will take very little force to pull 1/8 bow out of 5/8" stock over 40" long -- most any attachment method would hold the top reliably flat
    Mark R

  7. #37
    Thanks all for the informative replies. Since a 25 pound weight is not entirely taking the bow out of the board, it looks like I'm dealing with some significant internal stress. This makes it very difficult to glue the two boards together. I may go the veneer route as some have suggested, but likely will just start over with a new board, that will be at least 6/4 before re-sawing; or given the highly figured nature of the wood, just forget about book matching and avoid re-sawing altogether. It's great being part of Sawmill Creek.

    Len

  8. #38
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    Your next 4/4 board may resaw perfectly. I've resawed plenty of wood...think, thick. Most of it turned out just fine but there is always some wood here or there that rolled up on me something fierce. It is a natural product and not always easy to deal with.

    Like I said:

    Wood: a fickle medium!

    If you have a drum sander, sand both boards down until they are nice and flat and you'll have some thickish veneers to use elsewhere. Or glue them to some plainsawn maple for your top. There are lots of ways to skin this cat. Good Luck!!
    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  9. #39
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    Hey Ian

    I read most every word of the post explaining the case hardening, etc phenomena. Did not read the references you were kind enough to post.

    I always thought (in ignorance) that the twisting of the wood was on account of the weird ways the upright tree had to support limbs, prevailing winds, ground slopes, etc. Is there a scientific basis for that point of view?
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  10. #40
    I think it bowed due to internal stress. Maybe steaming would straighten it. Figure in boards can be due to where it came from in the tree. Crotches have figure. Stumps have figure. Maple sometimes has figure in a straight trunk but often the figure is essentially a sign of internal stress.

    I made some jewelry chests of figured maple 10 years or so ago for Christmas presents. I used a 3/4 board which I sawed to the necessary 1/2 thickness on my table saw leaving a scrap about 1/8 thick. I hated to waste that so I laminated it to some plain maple and made two more jewelry boxes for the two grandmothers. I could tell the difference between the solid boxes and the laminated ones but they couldn't.

    I would try hard to get veneers 1/4 to 1/8 thick from the warped board. It would make a nice top. Gluing the veneers to plain maple will also stabilize it.

  11. #41
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    I'm no expert David, and in the posts just tried to summarise what the experts have long had to say on the topic. For sure he reaction wood that gets produced when the tree has to support itself in odd situations is a cause of built in stress. As may be case hardening during kiln drying, or inconsistent moisture levels/moisture gradients inside the wood. The mechanics says that if the wood warps after cutting that some forces (=stress) have to have been present to cause it, and that these must somehow have become unbalanced as a result of the cutting..

    The possibility i was trying to point to was just that judging by the linked material and some other stuff i read there's a very decent possibility that an appropriate steaming or heating and wetting process followed by re-drying while held straight may have the potential to straighten out problem wood. Most of the time anyway. This because it seems like heat and water cause the lignin to become plastic. i.e. able to take a new set.

    Somebody with lots of experience of steaming might be able to offer a view on how well this might be expected to work. Springback could be an issue, there could be problems too with differing areas of the wood requiring different temperatures and moisture levels. The in kiln conditioning and equalizing processes described in the manuals for example acts locally to reverse the effects of case hardening in the zone/shell in which it occurred.

    If on the other hand conditioning and equalization could effectively 'kill' a thin board (turn it uniformly plastic through it's full thickness while its hot) so that it can then be set flat it might work very well… There seems judging by published papers to have been a lot of work done on techniques for stress relieving wood for use in man made boards.

    What does seem likely is that if wood has built in stresses in unpredictable locations it will be hard to get consistently accurate results by means of stuff like sawing again, wetting etc. It seems like it might work sometimes (if e.g. two boards stressed in equal and opposite ways are laminated together) - but plane away more of one than the other in that case and it'll probably warp again...
    Last edited by ian maybury; 06-24-2015 at 9:01 PM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian maybury View Post
    I'm no expert David,

    The possibility i was trying to point to was just that judging by the linked material and some other stuff i read there's a very decent possibility that an appropriate steaming or heating and wetting process followed by re-drying while held straight may have the potential to straighten out problem wood. Most of the time anyway. This because it seems like heat and water cause the lignin to become plastic. i.e. able to take a new set.

    No expert, huh? Sure........

    Plasticity-that is something that had not occurred to me, and does exist in so many biological systems. When reading these posts about throwing wood into the swimming pool, then baking in the sun-well, I just wasn't sure what to think about it. But, like you say, lignin is plastic, I guess.
    Last edited by Chris Padilla; 06-24-2015 at 10:13 PM.
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len Rosenberg View Post
    I've been saving a gorgeous piece of 4/4 AAAA quilted maple to use for a foyer table top. It's been acclimating in my heated shop for 2 or 3 years. Finally built the table and started on the top.
    First jointed it so it was dead flat. Resawed it down the middle, one half came out fine, the other went "sproing" and bowed over 1/8" in the middle (on a piece only 44" long).
    If I joint it flat it will be too thin to use for the top.
    Is there any way to prevent this? Other than buying 5/4 or 6/4 (if you can find it) and be prepared to joint it once again after resawing? I have enough of the original board left to make a second top, but expect the same problem to occur.

    Thanks for any suggestions.

    Len
    Len, can you post some photo's of the resawn boards? IN particular photo's showing the end grain as well as face grain photo's of each board.

    It is highly unusual for one of a pair of resawn boards to stay flat while the other warps.

    One other question - was the board stored flat in your shop with one face exposed and the other face flat against something?

  14. #44
    I'm thinking this is not moisture differential, this is internal stress relief. I've had it happen and in my (limited) experience, if this is what it is unfortunately you're never going to get this type of warping straight without remilling the wood.

    I doubt it will work, but you could try wetting the concave surface and stickering with some weight or putting a light on the convex surface. Wait a couple days if nothing is happening its what I said above.

    With nice wood like this, have you explored the possibility of re-milling the wood flat and face-glueing to another board to achieve desired thickeness?
    I would think the glue lines on the edges would not be very visible and if they are you could do a reverse bevel on the top?

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