Making Boxes

[David Ragan]

Am struggling with lack of inspiration in the shop. (this is obvious from my posting)

Made some boxes a few years ago, I really liked it. Made some decent ones. Went on to other things-toys, I think.

Went to the blog about the trip to England to see Andrew Crawford, while that will probably never happen for me, I did order his two books, and watched his YouTube stuff.

Can you all share with me some of the most helpful tutorials on making veneered boxes? I have some books on boxes, and a pretty nice set up for doing veneering.

My shop is only about 18 by 18, so it lends itself to small things.

I used Joe Woodworker as a veneering source, he is great for customer service, and all else.

Was using urea-formaldehyde resin (scarey stuff) on them.

Anyway, my current skill level is pretty basic and crude, and, of course, I would like to crank out some Andrew Crawford quality boxes----ha ha ha

As always, thanks, guys!

[Mike Henderson]

Crawford's boxes are the result of years of work and experimentation. You need to start with the basics and work up to more complex designs.

Regarding using veneer, start with a veneer design on the top - a flat top. Make your top and then build the box around it. You can use regular white glue (Elmer's GlueAll) for veneer - it works well. There are other good glues but white glue is simple, gives good open time, and works very well.

One glue I would recommend against is Titebond cold press glue - I've had bad luck with that glue.

There are books on making more simple boxes - get a few of those books and build some boxes. With each one, try to make it a bit more complex. There's no royal road to learning. But if you do the work and stretch yourself each time, you'll make great strides.

Mike

[Jeffrey Martel]

One glue I would recommend against is Titebond cold press glue - I've had bad luck with that glue.

Mike

I've had decent luck with that glue. You just gotta make sure you clamp it a lot and work from the center of the panel out in all directions. If you work in towards the center, you'll get ripples from the glue having nowhere to go.

I've since switched to Hot Hide Glue, however.

[David Ragan]

. You can use regular white glue (Elmer's GlueAll) for veneer - it works well. There are other good glues but white glue is simple, gives good open time, and works very well.

One glue I would recommend against is Titebond cold press glue - I've had bad luck with that glue.

Great advice. Start small/simple.

Isn't creep an issue with anything other than the urea/formaldehyde or hide glue?

[Mike Henderson]

Great advice. Start small/simple.

Isn't creep an issue with anything other than the urea/formaldehyde or hide glue?

I've never had any problems with white glue and veneer - and I've used it a lot. I think creep may be more of a problem in bent laminations.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I've had decent luck with that glue. You just gotta make sure you clamp it a lot and work from the center of the panel out in all directions. If you work in towards the center, you'll get ripples from the glue having nowhere to go.

I've since switched to Hot Hide Glue, however.

The problem I had with Titebond cold press glue was lack of adhesion. I used some on a veneer panel and then sprayed the veneer tape with water to remove it. I got bubbles in the veneer in places where the glue didn't adhere. So I wrote that one off to "Maybe I made a mistake - maybe I didn't use enough glue or I didn't leave it in press long enough."

So I did another panel and made sure I had sufficient glue on the surface - actually, I put glue on both the substrate and the veneer. Then I left it in press overnight, and then let it sit a full day for the glue to cure before putting any water on it. Sure enough, when I sprayed it to remove the veneer tape, I got blisters. So I patched the blisters (cut through the blister, work Gorilla glue behind it, then clamp.) Everything looked fine so I moved to finishing. In CA we use water based lacquer. When I sprayed the panel, I got more blisters.

That was the last time I tried to use Titebond cold press glue. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Mike

[I've done a lot of veneer work, and used a variety of glues, including white glue, yellow glue, UF glues, epoxy, and I don't know what else. Never had a problem like I did with that cold press glue.]

[Sometime later, I was talking with several other woodworkers and I mentioned the problem I had with cold press glue. EVERY ONE of them said they had the same problem but thought it was something they did wrong.]

[Mel Fulks]

I think creep in glue is pretty much gone. But white glue was the worst about it and when yellow glue came out its lack of creep was mentioned in magazines etc. I've glued two pieces of aluminum together to demonstrate the movement to those who blamed movement on "the wood".

[Edward Oleen]

I make boxes too. Mostly for utilitarian purposes, I must admit, but some for gifts and/or sale.
The one thing that I found to be most important is making the corners correctly. They have GOT to be tight. There is nothing that will show up sooner than a bad corner or edge. And there is nothing that is easier to screw up.

I use two methods. The first is a 45* miter joint. I went to great lengths to make a special sled: one which will hold the stock at exactly 45* and allow me to miter the inside of the corner without disturbing the over-all outside length. With this sled I can miter the edges as fast as I can load the side into the sled and lock it down with a toggle clamp and then push it through the blade. Depending on the height of the box I can miter one "side" and then slice it into either two or four sides of the resulting box. Bottoms sit in a dado I cut with the saw blade, making multiple passes as required.

Glueups are clamped with a strap clamp and four blocks - one for each corner - that cover the height of the box.

Easy-peasy. I can knock them out at good rates, limited primarily by my glueup facilities and space.

The other way I cheat is that I use a Keller dovetail jig, which makes perfect DT's each and every time.

I practiced using plywood for shop and utility boxes until I had it perfect: then and only then did I go for "exotic" woods: maple, white oak, red oak, and stuff I buy at Rosenzweig Lumber - the local (Bronx) fine woods dealer. I've made some acquaintances with the others that buy there: they will let me at their scrap pile for stuff that is much too small for them to use, or leftovers from a big commercial project, and, in return, I give them gift boxes: mostly small jewelry boxes for their women-folks.

[David Ragan]

I make boxes too. Mostly for utilitarian purposes, I must admit, but some for gifts and/or sale.
The one thing that I found to be most important is making the corners correctly. They have GOT to be tight. There is nothing that will show up sooner than a bad corner or edge. And there is nothing that is easier to screw up.

I use two methods. The first is a 45* miter joint. I went to great lengths to make a special sled: one which will hold the stock at exactly 45* and allow me to miter the inside of the corner without disturbing the over-all outside length. With this sled I can miter the edges as fast as I can load the side into the sled and lock it down with a toggle clamp and then push it through the blade. Depending on the height of the box I can miter one "side" and then slice it into either two or four sides of the resulting box. Bottoms sit in a dado I cut with the saw blade, making multiple passes as required.

Glueups are clamped with a strap clamp and four blocks - one for each corner - that cover the height of the box.

That sounds really cool Edward. Sometime if you could give an idea of your jig, Id appreciate it.

Corners are the problem.

[Roger Pozzi]

I had the same experience with that glue. But, being as stubborn as I am, I E-mailed Franklin with the product code and found that my glue was almost 2 years past its shelf life. I didn't bother to return it since it's about a 80 mile round trip to my woodworking store but, ended up using Titebond II with no problems.
Now, why can't manufacturers use best by dates like the food industry instead of embedding their dates in product codes???

[John Lankers]

Am struggling with lack of inspiration in the shop. (this is obvious from my posting)

Made some boxes a few years ago, I really liked it. Made some decent ones. Went on to other things-toys, I think.

Went to the blog about the trip to England to see Andrew Crawford, while that will probably never happen for me, I did order his two books, and watched his YouTube stuff.

Can you all share with me some of the most helpful tutorials on making veneered boxes? I have some books on boxes, and a pretty nice set up for doing veneering.

My shop is only about 18 by 18, so it lends itself to small things.

I used Joe Woodworker as a veneering source, he is great for customer service, and all else.

Was using urea-formaldehyde resin (scarey stuff) on them.

Anyway, my current skill level is pretty basic and crude, and, of course, I would like to crank out some Andrew Crawford quality boxes----ha ha ha

As always, thanks, guys!

David, check out this video tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF40G54cdxw - very informative and entertaining.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

I've veneered a few hundred sq ft with Titebond Cold Press Glue, at least 5 gallons, and have never had an adhesion issue. My normal finish is water soluble dye, which I flood on the veneer, soaking the entire surface with water, and still no issues.
You do need to use a LOT of glue. I pour it on and even it out with a foam roller, but you want the glue to be thick enough that you can't see the substrate through it, maybe .015" to .02"?
One other thing is that I always use a caul when vacuum bagging. I know a lot of people just use breather mesh, but I find the caul is much more reliable.

[Mike Henderson]

I've veneered a few hundred sq ft with Titebond Cold Press Glue, at least 5 gallons, and have never had an adhesion issue. My normal finish is water soluble dye, which I flood on the veneer, soaking the entire surface with water, and still no issues.
You do need to use a LOT of glue. I pour it on and even it out with a foam roller, but you want the glue to be thick enough that you can't see the substrate through it, maybe .015" to .02"?
One other thing is that I always use a caul when vacuum bagging. I know a lot of people just use breather mesh, but I find the caul is much more reliable.

The second panel I used it on, I put a LOT of glue on the substrate - certainly enough that I couldn't see the substrate. And then I put glue on the glue face of the veneer, which I usually don't do. I put in a vacuum press, with a caul, and left it press overnight. Then let it sit for a day for the glue to cure. Had adhesion problems. Gave up on that glue.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I can't figure out what it might be. There are many other glues I've had good success with. I'm not going to experiment with Titebond cold press any more and maybe have another panel failure or two. It's too much work preparing the veneer, especially since I often do designs with the veneer which is a lot more work than just laying a few pieces of plain veneer. By the time I get to glue up, I want to KNOW that the glue is going to work.

Mike

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

You never want to put the glue on the veneer, as the veneer will absorb too much moisture and bubble.

[Mike Henderson]

You never want to put the glue on the veneer, as the veneer will absorb too much moisture and bubble.

I think the reason for the recommendation to not put glue on the veneer is that the veneer will absorb moisture and expand. It does not affect the glue properties. For various reasons, I've put glue on the veneer, often around the outside to make sure I get a good adhesion in that area. And that's what I got, not bubbles.

The only way that putting glue on the veneer would cause problems is (1) from the expansion of the veneer, especially rotary cut veneer, or (2) if you put too much glue and it pools under the veneer, making a "glue bubble" - a bubble that when you cut into it, you can squeeze glue out of it.

The bubbles I got with cold press glue were not "glue bubbles" - it was just that the glue didn't work properly.

And problems with expansion of the veneer from moisture are generally experienced in two places: (1) before you get the piece in press the veneer can expand and you'll get a fold in your veneer as the vacuum pulls down, or (2) if you take the piece out of press prior to the glue curing, the veneer that expands can pull loose and buckle. I've had that happen with shop made banding if I took the piece out of press too soon.

I did not experience "folding" so I know the veneer did not expand before I got it into press. And I gave the glue plenty of time to cure, both in the press and after I took it out of press. It only buckled after I put water on the veneer after all that. So it's obvious to me that the glue did not hold. And I never experienced that with any of the other glues I've used with the same process.

Finally, this is not my first rodeo. I've laid a lot of veneer, both regular plain panels and decorative designs, including many, many radial matches. Over the years I've probably experienced most of the problems you can encounter with veneer and glue, although I keep getting surprised. The cold press glue I used simply did not adhere properly.

Mike