Hand Plane Questions

[Jason Lester]

I'm working on a new bench and trying to get prepared to flatten the top when done. I could do the router sled, but like the hand plane option better. I have two older hand planes that I've never been able to get working correctly. After reading up on them, I think they are both just crappy planes.

The first one I have is a Shelton No 9. I inherited it from someone. The consensus online seems to be that they were not made very well. This one is in pretty rough shape too, so maybe not worth fooling with any longer?

The second one is a Stanley #5 that I purchased new around 1990 from a hardware store. It has the plastic handles, so I think that makes it the "Handyman" model? It says Made in England, which I think means it is one of the bad ones? I remember getting frustrated with it back then and finally putting it up without ever getting a decent shaving with it. I know I have the blade razor sharp, the mouth set correctly, the chipbreaker barely off the edge, but I still can't get it to plane smoothly. I go from getting no shavings at all to skipping by just barely projecting the blade. Is this one worth continuing to try and tune up?

Assuming neither of those are good options (and new Veritas or LN models being too expensive), should I just pick a decent looking Stanley Bailey #5 off eBay? Looks like they go for $50-75 in decent condition. The Bedrocks go for about double that, are they worth the difference for a "working" plane versus one to display?

[Dave Parkis]

IMO, I'd put a WTB (Want to Buy) post in the classified section here. $75 seems like a lot for a #5 unless its pristeen. There are several people here that sell "rehabbed" hand tools (me included) and you'd be pretty much guaranteed that the plane would be ready to work when you receive it. By "ready to work", I mean cleaned and sharpened and checked over to make sure everything works properly. I expect you could get a decent plane for $30-$50 plus shipping. Some guys (like me) take planes apart to ship to try to make sure they don't get damaged in transit, so you'd have to put the knob and tote back on and set the frog up to your liking, but that should be about it. For a number 5, I would not expect the sole to be flat to NASA tolerances, but it shold be flat enough. That said, are you sure you want a 5 to flatten the bench top? If its already pretty flat, maybe you want a jointer (7 or 8).

[David M Anderson]

Both of the planes you mentioned, would not be one of my choices on a working plane.

The Shelton if it looks like a Stanley knock off, can be fine tuned as well as the Stanley plane, and be made into a good user.
I might get flack on this, the newer Stanley hand planes from England are as good if not better than the new ones made here.

Now to get to the point, do not know how bad of a shape the planes are and how much time you want to invest.
To me, I love to work on them and give an old tool a new life.
And what better way to learn how to fine tune, then on a old hand plane.
Better on a not so good hand plane than a more expensive one.

Some pics would be nice.

Some vintage planes other than Stanley and should be considered.
Miller Falls
Sargent
Union
And there are some nice Record hand planes out there, also.

Edit:
As Dave posted, maybe a #7 or a #8 would help you, I like a #6 plane.
Often under rated and can be found cheaper than a #5 on the Bay.

[Allan Speers]

Jason,


While neither plane you own is much of a prize, and also not the best size for the task at hand, you should be having the dismal results you report.

My guess is that you haven't yet learned to sharpen your blades correctly. There is no huge design flaw in a Shelton #9 that prevent it from making thin & light curlies. - And the same goes for a Stanley Handyman. They're plane Janes, and they are a bit harder to adjust than, say, a nice Bedrock or Lie Nielsen, but lots of folks made fine furniture with them.

------

As for flattening a top, you're going to want something longer to do most of the work. This is NOT essential, but it does save time. - Just remember that the tool still doesn't flatten your top for you. Your most important tools are your eyes and brain. Also, amke sure to make or buy winding stick, otherwise your top could end up flat, but not level. (Twisted.)

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Jason and welcome to the Creek. Your location doesn't show in your profile. You may be close to another member who would be willing to look at your planes to see if you may have missed something.

If you live in the Portland, Oregon area I would be happy to look at your planes and see if they can be coaxed into smooth shaving.

My biggest leap in plane set up came when a plane bought on ebay came to me able to take shavings of less than 0.001". It was like an eye opening moment of realization.

I have had some Stanley planes from after WW II that just didn't want to work right no matter what.

It really helps to have a chance to see what a plane can do to get into tuning up a plane to do what is possible. If you possibly can get to a tools show or to someone's shop to use a well set up plane, it can make a lot of difference in your progress with using planes.

jtk

[steven c newman]

too far to drive down there to where you are at.

So. I rehab a lot of old planes, usually ones people gave up on, and let rust. Biggest things I have found is that one, the blade was installed with the bevel up, and the chipbreaker sitting on the bevel, easy fix. next, iron was bent, another easy fix. Next, chipbreaker had a gap between it and the iron, even after the iron was fixed. Sand, grind, or stone a back bevel until the chipbreaker sits on the back of the iron without any gaps. Wood will catch in these gaps, and clog up the works. Looking for a nice straight "knife edge" where it meets the iron.

For some reason, people seem to move the frog as far forward as they can. Wood has no way to come up out of the plane that way. No matter how shallow or deep the setting. I take a skinny straight edge, like a file. I lay it on the frog's face, and adjust the frog until it is "coplanar" with the little "ramp" cast into the base casting. Looking for no gaps there. Once that happens, torque the bolts holding the frog in place as tight as you can. While you are placing the frog in place, make sure it sit without any rocking around. Clean the area under the frog, of paint, and dirt. Even a small speck under the frog can cause problems. You want a nice clean base to set the frog on.

I have had a Stanley Handyman 1205, jack plane. I actually rehabbed it enough that it would work just fine as a jack plane. See-through shavings? Why? That is for a smooth plane to produce. Currently have a type 5, Sargent #414. Almost as old as the planes youhave

IMAG0170.jpg
It needed a bit of work when it showed up, I think it might do, for now...

[Prashun Patel]

"a decent looking Stanley Bailey #5 off eBay"

Buying on ebay has some risk in it. For my money, I'd buy from one of the reputable rehabbers around here - even if it means you pay a little more.

Also, for flattening a bench, I'd think you'd want a jointer plane in addition to the jack.

[Jason Lester]

Thanks for all the help guys. After gluing up the next section for my bench this morning, I started back on the two planes.

I still can't get the Stanley working right. Just a very small turn takes it from no shavings to digging into the board. I really can't figure it out. Here's a photo of it:

unszc5W.jpg

You can see the plastic handles, plastic adjusting wheel, and no fine adjustment for the frog.

The Shelton was missing one of the frog screws, but I robbed one from the Stanley temporarily and moved the blade from the Stanley over to it. After spending a few minutes adjusting it, I am successfully getting decent shavings from it now. Here's a better photo of the Shelton:

dAhAe3i.jpg

I'm going to hit a couple of local antique stores this weekend to look for a decent Stanley or similar. If not, I'll check with a couple of people on here about getting one. Thanks again for the help!

[Archie England]

"a decent looking Stanley Bailey #5 off eBay"

Buying on ebay has some risk in it. For my money, I'd buy from one of the reputable rehabbers around here - even if it means you pay a little more.

Also, for flattening a bench, I'd think you'd want a jointer plane in addition to the jack.

I wholeheartedly agree! Great counsel!!!

Oh, and from personal experience of rehabbing several Handyman planes, they really DON'T work as well, being much more finicky to tune to a fine shaving. I'm not a machinist, though; maybe that's what it takes.

[Derek Cohen]

The symptoms of the Stanley sound like there is a hollow around the mouth.

I suspect that the blade has to project further to cut when in the middle of the board. Consequently, if the plane is set to cut at the start of the board, it will not cut in the middle of the board, and if it is set to cut at the middle, it will cut too deeply at the start.

If so, you need to flatten the sole.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

How's your blade and how confident are you of your sharpening skills?

[Archie England]

The symptoms of the Stanley sound like there is a hollow around the mouth.

I suspect that the blade has to project further to cut when in the middle of the board. Consequently, if the plane is set to cut at the start of the board, it will not cut in the middle of the board, and if it is set to cut at the middle, it will cut too deeply at the start.

If so, you need to flatten the sole.

Regards from Perth

Derek

If I may expand on this....

Take a known flat surface (e.g., 24" ruler or level) and lay it on the sole of the plane. See how much light can be seen between the straight edge and the plane sole. If you see a gap in front of the plane's mouth, then Derek's on the money. If the plane is nearly perfect, then perhaps you should a) move your frog up 1/32 or b) move your chipbreaker to within 1/32 of the edge of the blade or c) make sure that the chipbreaker and blade mate perfectly 100% all along the edge. Do make sure that the blade is very sharp!!!!!! Dull blades tend to grab, skate, skitter, or dig in way too far. One other issue could be some grit or rubble trapped between the frog and the base. This could be heavy paint, grime, machining imperfections, etc. Carefully remove any such intrusions from that area between the plane base upon which the frog bottom must mate. Finally, a sharp blade can forgive more than a dull one, so do sharpen well. Make sure when extending the blade that you turn the plane over and sight down the sole to protrude the blade through the mouth. Our eyes are amazing gifts to perceive even slight variations. Never move your fingers into the blade!!!!!!

Keep sending more pics.

[Warren Mickley]

I still can't get the Stanley working right. Just a very small turn takes it from no shavings to digging into the board. I really can't figure it out. Here's a photo of it:


Here's a better photo of the Shelton:

dAhAe3i.jpg

I think you can get better results with these two planes. The iron in your second picture appears to be installed upside down. These are bevel down planes. A Stanley Handyman can certainly be made to do professional hand tool work. Some people have a poor idea of "Just a small turn"; try turning the adjustment wheel in 15 degree increments.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

For some reason, people seem to move the frog as far forward as they can. Wood has no way to come up out of the plane that way. No matter how shallow or deep the setting. I take a skinny straight edge, like a file. I lay it on the frog's face, and adjust the frog until it is "coplanar" with the little "ramp" cast into the base casting. Looking for no gaps there. Once that happens, torque the bolts holding the frog in place as tight as you can. While you are placing the frog in place, make sure it sit without any rocking around. Clean the area under the frog, of paint, and dirt. Even a small speck under the frog can cause problems. You want a nice clean base to set the frog on.

Thanks for the tip.... I had this awesome (very old) #8 and I gave it to a close family friend. I then obtained a replacement on ebay and have never been really happy with it. I mean it works, but not as nicely as the other. I will check this on my #8 franken plane.

[Dennis Ryan]

I disagree with buying a jointer for this task. The OP does not have a usable plane. If it were me, the first plane I buy would be a 4 or 5. I also would not advise rehabbing your existing planes. They sound like they are in terrible shape, and if I wasn't confident in my ability to use a hand plane, the experience would just frustrate the heck out of me.

Dennis