Jet Jointer Planer - JJP 12HH

[Prashun Patel]

Just an update:

Both the FS30 and the A3-31 seem to be easy to use and changeover.

The critical differences for me are:

FS30: Has a Tersa head which users seem to love for its ease of blade change. I do mill a lot of from-the-woods lumber so having a beater and fine set of knives is appealing.

A3-31: The spiral cutter block seems to be a little quieter. Also, the digital gauge gets good marks. It also has the sliding fence which allows it to stay in place when flipping up the tables. I am not sure if that's good or bad because it seems like it'd require more space behind the unit. Hammer is also having a summer promotion right now, so the price is competitive with the Jet I was considering.

[Matt Winterowd]

Prashun, I've weighed in on the Tersa vs. spiral head issue before and I would take the spiral every time. Tersa is really easy to change, and when they're fresh, they leave a sweet surface. But at the end of the day they still get nicked up easily, aren't cheap to replace, and don't handle figured woods as well. As a hobby woodworker, it will be a long time before you every even think about rotating the cutters on a spiral head unless you run a rock or a nail through the machine.

I would also say that I've gotten amazing service from Felder and that's worth a lot. We got a bandsaw with a bad motor starter and they sent a tech out and upgraded the whole electrical system including the motor to avoid a small chance of a future warranty issue. Really good working with them.

[Erik Loza]

....But at the end of the day they still get nicked up easily, aren't cheap to replace, and don't handle figured woods as well....

Matt, I have to disagree with those statements. In my experience, Tersa knives don't get knicked more easily than any other knife and if that truly is a concern for guys, carbide Tersas are available. Regarding cost, my favorite dealer for Tersa is W. Moore Profiles and according to their site, a single 300mm HS/S Tersa knife (my favorite alloy) is $17.25...

http://www.wmooreprofiles.com/c-1007-hss.aspx

.... Which means that it would cost the owner $52 to change the entire set of knives on an FS30 Classic, giving him six cutting edges, since the knives are double-sided. No clue what competitors sell their insert teeth for but I have hard time believing it could be much more competitive that that.

Also, I don't know where this got started but Tersa knives do just as good a job on figured wood. In fact, I would argue that a set of sharp HS/S Tersa knives gives a better finish on 95% of the wood a guy would ever run than any spiral will. For conversation's sake, I took this photo many years ago, on our (then) shop FS30 Smart. El-Cheapo chrome steel Tersa knives that already had a ton of board-feet on them, on this piece of African Mohagany. The photo is obviously staged (I cleaned up the machine) but that board was run through that machine...



The projection and rake angle of a Tersa knife is essentially the same as any of the spirals, which also means that it's equally quiet. 70db at idle, in fact. To put it into perspective, I have sold literally hundreds of Minimax jointer/planers over the last decade and can count on less than one hand the number of owners who told me they wanted a spiral head after using the Tersa.

Some of the reasons I like Tersa:

1.) Obviously, the speed of knife change but more importantly, the options it gives you: HS/S, carbide, Chromium steel, M42 Cobalt, and also these new coated knives from Kanefusa (which I haven't tried yet). Just like bandsaws: Would you want to be able to use only one blade?
2.) As Prashun mentioned, the fact that you can keep some dull or beater knives around for general-purpose thicknessing, then swap in the HS/S ones for the super-fine finish.
3.) "If" the knives ever get knicked, you just loosen the gib bars and scooch one of the knives over a mm or so, which will solve any streaking on the board.
4.) The fact that you can mix and match knives on the same head. For example, mix HS/S and carbide, so that you get the durability as well as finish quality. This is a common trick in pro shops. In fact, Martin even supplies owners with a pair of dummy knives for their jointers and planers.

One a jobsite/contractor-level machine, where you might be on 110V, then spiral makes more sense. Or, if you have a big industrial planer where you are running tons of board-feet of flooring, then the spiral makes more sense but for the home or one-man shop, Tersa, hands-down. No doubt about it. Just my 2-cents, as always.

Erik

[Matt Winterowd]

Erik, I totally respect your experience and position, and of course you are correct that many shops are indeed extremely well served by Tersa heads. There's no question that it's a very nice system and they are far and away superior to any other straight knife system that I'm aware of. And the surface quality off of a sharp set of knives is second to none. I should also be clear that I did not mean to say that Tersa knives handle figured woods any worse or get nicked any more easily than any other straight knife system. Again, on the whole I think they do better than any other straight knife. But I do mean to say that it has not been my experience that they match the performance of a high quality carbide insert spiral head in those regards.

I will just say that I came to my position based on me and my crew having run tens of thousands of board feet of everything from spruce to wenge and bubinga through both types of heads. We use a lot of highly figured woods, woods with interlocking grain, and woods that are hard on cutters. After about 4 years of using both styles of cutters side-by-side, often sequentially on the same piece of wood, our shop found it to be worth the expense and effort to actually replace the Tersa heads on our Martin machines with Byrd shelix heads due to both better performance as well as lower cost to operate.

Obviously that speaks more to the commercial scenario that you concede to the spiral head, but I guess I still don't understand the logic of why the Tersa head would be the clear preference for the home shop. One of the more lightly used machines in our shop, which still outstrips the volume of the typical home user by an order of magnitude, finally had to have it's inserts rotated to a sharp edge after 2 1/2 years. We never touched a single insert before that. As I stated in my previous post, a hobby user will most likely not have to even think about their cutters again for literally years barring some unfortunate mishap. Will it pay for itself? Probably not. And I would never tell anyone that they need a spiral head, so break the bank. But if the option is realistic, would I rather spend my time in my hobby shop doing just about anything else besides touching my jointer/planer knives? Absolutely. For me, it moves those machines closer to the appliance model. You turn the machine on, it does it's job really well, you turn it off and you walk away. Clean the sawdust off and wax the tables from time to time. That's it.

If that doesn't fit anyone's thought process or pocketbook, great! I will be happy to congratulate them on their new machine regardless of how it's configured!

[Bill McNiel]

Prashun,
Please post your final decision and reasoning. I've been considering selling my vintage Makita and getting a spiral head Hammer for a while now and would appreciate your input.
Mahalo-Bill

[Erik Loza]

Matt, I can't disagree with any of your experiences, particularly in a shop setting where the priority is running as many board-feet as possible in a hurry, except to say that IMHO, A fresh set of HS/S Tersa knives beats the finish on spiral any day of the week. That's based on personal experience. One thing I have seen is that as the carbide inserts wear (and they all do...), the degradation in finish is gradual, so we may tend not to notice it. It's like the suspension in an older vehicle: You didn't realize how sloppy it was until new bushing got installed, then "Oh, wow!". Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks for all the help, everyone. A few people phoned and pm'd me with very valuable insight. Thank you.

I ended up purchasing the Hammer A3-31, with the Silent (helical) Cutter block and the depth gauge.

I can't find many bad things said about either this machine or the Minimax FS30. The noise level, durability of the spiral head, the praise for the depth gauge, and the promotional pricing tipped the scale for me. I think these features will be more important to me than the longer table and some of the reported convenience features of the FS30.

Now I just gotta sell my jointer and planer. I hate cleaning them up for photos!!!

[Dennis Aspö]

Matt, I have to disagree with those statements. In my experience, Tersa knives don't get knicked more easily than any other knife and if that truly is a concern for guys, carbide Tersas are available. Regarding cost, my favorite dealer for Tersa is W. Moore Profiles and according to their site, a single 300mm HS/S Tersa knife (my favorite alloy) is $17.25...

http://www.wmooreprofiles.com/c-1007-hss.aspx

.... Which means that it would cost the owner $52 to change the entire set of knives on an FS30 Classic, giving him six cutting edges, since the knives are double-sided. No clue what competitors sell their insert teeth for but I have hard time believing it could be much more competitive that that.

Can't believe Europe managed to beat America and Texas of all place, in prices for once. I know a german webshop that sells almost only planer blades and a HS/S 300mm tersa cutter is under 10 euros a piece.

I sorely wish my little jointer/planer was able to take tersa blades but it doesn't and I paid nearly 90 euros for a 3 piece set... At least I got two sets and they are re-sharpenable.

[Bill Adamsen]

12" (310mm) would be a little too small for my needs for either tool. But I have found a combination j/p very workable. Good luck with your purchase Prashun!

[Frank Martin]

Prashun,

Enjoy your new machine! I had an asian J/P in the past and upgraded to Minimax as part of a combo machine. These machines are so much nicer than asian ones and in my opinion well worth the price difference.

Thanks for all the help, everyone. A few people phoned and pm'd me with very valuable insight. Thank you.

I ended up purchasing the Hammer A3-31, with the Silent (helical) Cutter block and the depth gauge.

I can't find many bad things said about either this machine or the Minimax FS30. The noise level, durability of the spiral head, the praise for the depth gauge, and the promotional pricing tipped the scale for me. I think these features will be more important to me than the longer table and some of the reported convenience features of the FS30.

Now I just gotta sell my jointer and planer. I hate cleaning them up for photos!!!

[mreza Salav]

Congrat's! I think you made a good decision.

[David Nelson1]

Oooh, thanks for this. I did not consider the ease of alignment. This machine got high marks from FWW for quick switchover.

I'm tempted to step up to the Hammer A3-31...

Do it and don't look back!

[Chris Parks]

Just an update:

Both the FS30 and the A3-31 seem to be easy to use and changeover.

The critical differences for me are:

FS30: Has a Tersa head which users seem to love for its ease of blade change. I do mill a lot of from-the-woods lumber so having a beater and fine set of knives is appealing.

A3-31: The spiral cutter block seems to be a little quieter. Also, the digital gauge gets good marks. It also has the sliding fence which allows it to stay in place when flipping up the tables. I am not sure if that's good or bad because it seems like it'd require more space behind the unit. Hammer is also having a summer promotion right now, so the price is competitive with the Jet I was considering.

Exactly the dilemma I faced and a search will find a thread I started here to question it. If the MM had a spiral segmented head it would have been a shoe in but as good as the Tersa head is and I love the concept I went with the Hammer. One thing I like about the Hammer is the in handle height instrument, it is dead on and repeatable and I think is better than a digital readout as the resolution is better. I smile every time I set it to a thickness and it is spot on every time. I am going to make a few modifications to it when I get the time but they apply to any lower end combination machine, I have the stuff here to convert it to an electric lift and I would like to be able to set a target height on the lift but that may be a step to far.