Adze for carving a chair seat

[Mike Holbrook]

Maybe a picture of the plane with it Mike, and where you purchased it.

[Tony Shea]

A travisher is another tool that would get the job done. I think you would be very disappointed in the adze's you have linked to. It appears that the bevel is on the inside of all those tools which is not the proper orientation for an adze used for scooping out. Hence why scorps are also bevel out, not bevel on the inside. Tim Manney makes a beautiful adze for scooping out chair seats that I use at the last LN open house in Warren, Maine. It was a dream to use. But without an adze I would def recommend using a scorp or a travisher to get you roughed out. An adze def takes some getting used to and can make a deep gouge in one swipe.

[Mike Henderson]

Here are some pictures of a sculpted seat rocker that I did. I've done a number of chairs with sculpted seats but all the others are in someone else's home. This is the only one that I made for myself.

Seat01.jpg

Here's a view looking down on to the seat.


Seat02.jpg

I measured the depth by putting a rule across the seat and then measuring down to the sculpted part.

Seat03.jpg

In the back part of the seat, I'm down about 3/4 inch.

Seat04.jpg

I think I'm limited in how many pictures I can put in a single post so I'll continue on the next post.

[Mike Henderson]

I also measured how deep I went in the legs.

Seat05.jpg

I'm down about 3/4 inch there, also.

Seat04.jpg

Continued on next post.

[Mike Henderson]

I sculpted this seat with the following two chairmaker planes. The small, metal one I bought from St James Bay and the wooden one I made myself.

Seat07.jpg

Here's a bit closer view of the metal one.

Seat08.jpg

Another view of the metal one.

Seat09.jpg

And a view of the bottom of the wooden one.

Seat10.jpg

The planes work something like a scrub plane. They hog out wood but you have to be careful about direction. You don't want to work into the grain - it's best to work cross grain or down grain - similar to a scrub plane. They leave grooves, just like a scrub plane. The little one has a flatter bottom across the plane and doesn't leave as much of a groove. I always finish with it even if I hog out the majority with the larger plane. But the little plane is quite effective by itself.

After getting the seat roughed out, I finish with coarse sandpaper in an ROS, then finer sandpaper in a ROS and finish by hand with sandpaper.

If, after the first coarse sanding I find bumps, I use the small plane to smooth things out. You can feel the surface better than you can see it. And that's what you're working for, a smooth feeling sculpted seat.

BTW, I marked out the blank before sculpting by sitting on the blank and traced the outline of my butt and legs with a pencil. In working a seat, I mostly just go by eye. If it looks good, I'm satisfied. I don't drill holes or anything else to figure out how deep to go. I outline and then start hogging out wood until it looks like I want it to look.

Mike

[What would I change? The blade of the big one is too wide which makes it harder to push. If I did seats often, I'd narrow the iron to about the width of a Stanley 40 scrub plane iron. Or get a Stanley 40 iron and make a new plane that wide.]

[Softwood, as is used on Windsor chairs, is easy and quick to do.]

[Stephen Clement]

I have the Sitka gutter adze from Kestrel Tools in Washington. It is marvelous and not too pricy. I bought the iron only and made my own handle and sheath which helped keep the cost down. Some people are talking about skipping the adze and going straight to an inshave or travisher, which I would not recommend. If you can afford it, get all 3. The adze hogs the material out fast, the inshave defines the shape, and the travisher provides the final finish. You could skip the adze and start with an inshave, but it will take much longer. I have a two cherries inshave which, apart from coming with an abysmal grinding job, is pretty good. Travishers are hard to come by vintage and new one are pricey. The cheapest option is from Elia Bizzarri in NC; slightly nicer but pricier is the one from Peter Galbert in MA. Also if you don't have it, get Galberts book. It will help make chair making seem much more approachable.

[Dave Anderson NH]

When I took a class from Mike Dunbar over 20 years ago there was a progression of tools used to sculpt a Windsor chair seat. We started with a gutter adze for the roughest heavy stock removal work and then started working with a scorp (inshave) to slightly refine the shape. A compass plane then evened things out and final refinement was with a travisher. This progression allowed us to work efficiently rather than spending huge amounts of time removing fine shavings with a toll or tools designed for finishing work. I've used the same method on the 9 other Windsors I've built over the years.

[Steve Voigt]

Some people are talking about skipping the adze and going straight to an inshave or travisher, which I would not recommend. If you can afford it, get all 3. The adze hogs the material out fast, the inshave defines the shape, and the travisher provides the final finish. You could skip the adze and start with an inshave, but it will take much longer.

When I took a class from Mike Dunbar over 20 years ago there was a progression of tools used to sculpt a Windsor chair seat. We started with a gutter adze for the roughest heavy stock removal work and then started working with a scorp (inshave) to slightly refine the shape. A compass plane then evened things out and final refinement was with a travisher. This progression allowed us to work efficiently rather than spending huge amounts of time removing fine shavings with a toll or tools designed for finishing work. I've used the same method on the 9 other Windsors I've built over the years.

Some great points in these two posts. To elaborate a little: roughing tools of all types--axes, adzes, gouges, even angle grinders--don't have soles, because soles limit depth of cut. Finishing tools--planes, travishers, and spokeshaves--have soles, which smooth out irregularities from the roughing tools. A scrub or jack plane can rough a flat surface, but on a concave surface like a chair seat, it's hard to see how a plane could be an efficient roughing tool.

Random orbital sanders have "soles," I guess, but flat ones, so it's equally hard to see how they could be appropriate finishing tools for concave surfaces. They are also notorious for producing bumpy, uneven surfaces. I've never regretted pitching mine in the trash a couple years ago. If one has used a travisher or plane and still has tearout, another good option is scraping with a chair devil. That should at least get you to the point where you can hand-sand with medium or fine paper, so you don't do too much damage to the integrity of the curves.

[paul cottingham]

What beatiful work. Thanks for taking the time to share, you've given me some very good ideas.

[paul cottingham]

When I took a class from Mike Dunbar over 20 years ago there was a progression of tools used to sculpt a Windsor chair seat. We started with a gutter adze for the roughest heavy stock removal work and then started working with a scorp (inshave) to slightly refine the shape. A compass plane then evened things out and final refinement was with a travisher. This progression allowed us to work efficiently rather than spending huge amounts of time removing fine shavings with a toll or tools designed for finishing work. I've used the same method on the 9 other Windsors I've built over the years.

A gutter adze is one of my choices. How curved was the blade? The one i looked at was quite curved, a very pronounced "u." Do you think a seat in pine would be possible with a gutter adze and a Veritas pullshave? Ive played around withthe pullshave enough to think you could use it coarsely like a scorp, then set it fine like a travisher. Thoughts would be appreciated.

thanks for taking the time to reply

[paul cottingham]

Some great points in these two posts. To elaborate a little: roughing tools of all types--axes, adzes, gouges, even angle grinders--don't have soles, because soles limit depth of cut. Finishing tools--planes, travishers, and spokeshaves--have soles, which smooth out irregularities from the roughing tools. A scrub or jack plane can rough a flat surface, but on a concave surface like a chair seat, it's hard to see how a plane could be an efficient roughing tool.

Random orbital sanders have "soles," I guess, but flat ones, so it's equally hard to see how they could be appropriate finishing tools for concave surfaces. They are also notorious for producing bumpy, uneven surfaces. I've never regretted pitching mine in the trash a couple years ago. If one has used a travisher or plane and still has tearout, another good option is scraping with a chair devil. That should at least get you to the point where you can hand-sand with medium or fine paper, so you don't do too much damage to the integrity of the curves.

I have really terrible neuropathic pain in my hands, so i cant use any sanders at all. They literally put my hand out of commission for a couple of days. Im also limited budget wise. A chair devil may actually fit with my current plan of an adze of some kind, followed by a pullshave, then maybe a chair devil. Any thoughts on this combination would be appreciated.

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

[george wilson]

Great work,Mike!!

[Karl Andersson]

Regarding the sculptor's adze show in the original post, I would not recommend it unless you are willing to make a number of modifications and accommodations. I got one as a gift since I was starting out making carved bowls and it was thought I could use this to make faster rough work. Right out of the box, this adze, made by Stubai, was not very good quality nor was it well designed. About the only thing good I could say is that it wasn't very expensive compared to other ones available.

For those interested in what the problems were: The handle is narrow and far too long considering the strike radius of the curved blade, limiting the angles you can cut. The head is light, so you have to swing it hard to get a decent amount of wood cut (especially end grain). The mortise for the handle (in the head) is pretty small, so they added a hollow pin to hold the head on instead of a wedge. It lasted one 30-minute chopping session on a poplar bowl. The curved side of the blade is, as mentioned, beveled only on the inside, making it want to dig into the "scoop" cut. The flat axe-head side was pretty dull and since the head is so light, you can't generate much of a cut with it. Its dullness was a good thing when the head broke off the handle and bounced back at me. The radius of the curve across the edge of the blade was way off - one corner was bent down at a much more acute curve than the other and the blade was ground straight across (instead of being cambered) so it had thin, weak corners that dug in and twisted the head during the cut. Oh, and the silly blue paint rubs off on the wood you're cutting.

So, in order to make it a useable tool, I made a thicker, shorter handle - about 2/3 the original length. Then I ground a flare in the top of the mortise of the head so I could use wedges to hold the handle on. The curved side of the blade was reground with a double bevel and given a camber and rounded corners. The straight blade got a shallower bevel and a slight camber as well, and I sanded back some of the blue paint. As it is, it works better, but still only "OK" - I do most bowl roughing with timber framing gouges (like 2-inch wide ones) until I can find a nice heavy antique bowl or cooper's adze. I use this adze for intermediate shaping after the gouge work to "blend" the gouge cuts before final shaping with scorps and knives.

Karl

[Steve Voigt]

I have really terrible neuropathic pain in my hands, so i cant use any sanders at all. They literally put my hand out of commission for a couple of days. Im also limited budget wise. A chair devil may actually fit with my current plan of an adze of some kind, followed by a pullshave, then maybe a chair devil. Any thoughts on this combination would be appreciated.

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

Actually, chair devil is probably the wrong term, since those are usually concave, but I was thinking of a housed convex scraper. They are easy to make and would definitely be easier on your hands than a card scraper.

I'm afraid I don't know anything about the pullshave. Looks like a reasonable tool, though. For the adze, several people here have recommended the Kestrel and the Tim Manney adzes, so if I were buying, I think I would listen to them.

I'm a little hesitant to mention this, because I know not everyone is into making their own tools, but a travisher can definitely be made. I did a little writeup on mine here.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Paul- My gutter adze is an almost perfect U shape with slightly wider tips and a curve from cutting edge to poll. It is similar to the LV gutter adze but with a longer distance poll to cutting edge and with a longer handle. Handle length is important since the preferred method of work is with feet about shoulder width apart and on each edge of the seat blank holding it in place. You swing between your legs and too short a handle will cause a nightmare of a sore back.
I've never used the LV pull shave so I really can't offer you any advice positive or negative. I've no doubt though that it is of the normal commendable LV quality.