Advice on an antique lathe

[Jeff Spaulding]

Did the pink stuff smell like bubble gum? Maybe it was some of that tooth polish they use...

Heh, that'd be funny. But no, it doesn't smell strongly of anything. I'm a smoker so my sense of smell is practically dead, though.

Heads up: the rest of this post is rather off-topic - nothing to do with this lathe specifically, but more about the guy that used to own it.

The dentist was an interesting guy, judging by what I saw of his home and shop. He had a shop that Marc Spagnolo would drool over. He also did stone carving in addition to woodworking. If only I had brought more money with me, I'd have been able to pick up some really nice stuff - I walked out of there with an air compressor (hole in the tank, but it was $20, and the motor and compressor work), a bunch of wood, this lathe, a couple rabbit planes, and some non-tool-related stuff for pretty cheap. There were some ebay resellers there, though, and it's hard to justify the cost to outbid them when you're planning on using rather than reselling. I was bidding on a box of slicks and chisels that would have resold for at least $2000, but lost to a reseller. The same guy also won the Delta lathe, which was what I was originally there for.

This wasn't the only vintage machine. He had a lot of antique dentist equipment (we're talking Painless Parker era stuff) and a gigantic cast iron bandsaw from (I'm guessing) the 30s. It was so big that it only sold for $50 - no one wanted to move it.

It doesn't look like he did metalwork, but I'm guessing he knew enough about machinery to use proper lubrication. I'm still going to follow Leo's advice and clean it all out and use automotive grease, though.

Wish I could have talked to him before he died. I'm betting he took a lot of hard-earned wisdom with him.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Thanks, Leo. It's good to have advice on the grease from someone who has worked with this kind of machine. Keeping it in working condition is my #1 priority. When I get it moved, I'll do like you say and open it up and clean it out and see what's in there. When I start using it, I'll have to remember to make greasing the bearings part of my routine.

I dug out the stuff in front of the tailstock and pulled it out. The good news is that the headstock and tailstock seem to have the same taper. The bad news is the live center that was in the tailstock doesn't fit. It sticks about halfway out.

Attachment 318498

(Please excuse the flash - it was after dark and there's no electricity out there.)

Going by what I measured (5/8"), I'm going to guess it's a Jarno #5 taper. That's just a guess, though. It seems to fit the time period, and there's a lot of dead centers for those on ebay that had to come from somewhere.

I'll probably go with my original plan of putting something in the taper to measure it. Not plaster though - both tapers bottom out, so plaster would be hard to remove intact. Besides, the tailstock weighs a ton and I'm not comfortable trying to get it to stand on the wheel on a concrete floor - it'd be just my luck to drop it and crack it in half.

While I do like the fact that it's an antique machine, I'm awfully tempted to have both sides reamed to 2MT. It'd really simplify things for me.

Here's some better pictures of the tailstock, now that I've dug it out:

Attachment 318499Attachment 318500

The knob is indeed the locking knob. It works fine. One thing I noticed - if I back the tailstock in all the way, the wheel keeps going but the tailstock starts turning. When that happens, you can't make it come back out without tightening the top knob. I found this out accidentally - I've seen videos where people eject their centers by retracting the tailstock all the way. That didn't work for me (must be a feature on newer lathes - the tailstock only retracts so that it's flush with the casing), but a couple light taps with that clamp sitting next to it popped it out fine.

If you have the tapers machined, I’d have the spindles drilled through, small extra job that will make live much simpler using the lathe, on the headstock spindle you could use a vacuum chuck and also use a drawbar to hold a drill chuck in the spindle.

In the tailstock it will make removal of the drill chuck or centers easy with a knockout bar, although a short piece of pipe placed on the shaft before you install the center can be used to remove the center when retracting it, as it will jamb between the housing and the center forcing the center out.

You will have to find out what kind of taper the live center is first, before doing any changes, does the fit of the taper feel right for the part that does go into the spindle ??

The tailstock shaft should have a groove in it to prevent it from turning around, I think the knob has to go into the groove, maybe remove the shaft and the knob to find if that is indeed the right piece and fitting into a groove as I suspect there is.
Good luck with your endeavor 1thumb.gif

[Jeff Spaulding]

That's the first I've heard of a drawbar. I had to look it up. I guess it just shows how much I have to learn.

It certainly looks useful. I'll try to find a machine shop in the next couple days and talk to them about it.

One thing though: there's a hole on the other side of the spindle that's clogged with sawdust. It's not very large - maybe a quarter of an inch? It doesn't go through and I don't know if it's threaded or not. My machine isn't horribly decorative, so it has to be there for a reason (even if it was a result of the manufacturing process). Does anyone here know what it could be for? I don't want to drill it out and then find out it was actually used for something important.

The live center feels tight in the spindle. Doing some napkin math tells me that an MT2 taper would have a little over 1 1/2" between the gauge line and the 5/8" mark. Add another 1/4" past the gauge mark (according to wikipedia) and that seems to match what I remember. I don't know that it actually is tight behind the taper, though - it felt snug, but I didn't wiggle it a whole lot, either. Morse tapers aren't all the same, apparently, but a MT2 is really close to the same taper as a Jarno (20 thou per foot more taper for the morse), except it starts a bit larger. Of course, the idea that the existing taper is a Jarno is just conjecture at this point.

Considering how heavy the lathe is (I had to lift the tongue of my trailer so the back was on the ground while two people lifted the lathe the couple inches to get it onto the trailer bed - and that's with the tailstock already removed), I might as well go ahead and remove the headstock next time I'm out there - it'll make things easier on everybody, and allow me to take both to a machine shop. I'll post what they say after I talk to them - hopefully in the next couple days.

[Ryan Mooney]

One thing though: there's a hole on the other side of the spindle that's clogged with sawdust. It's not very large - maybe a quarter of an inch? It doesn't go through and I don't know if it's threaded or not. My machine isn't horribly decorative, so it has to be there for a reason (even if it was a result of the manufacturing process). Does anyone here know what it could be for? I don't want to drill it out and then find out it was actually used for something important.

Straight up guessing here but its possible that its part of a spindle lock (assuming its on the headstock spindle)? I'd pick out the sawdust with a dental pick and see what's inside

[Jeff Spaulding]

Well, took the headstock and tailstock apart yesterday.

Leo was right - there's no bearings in there, or even bronze bushings. It just spins in the cast iron.

Lathe-36.jpgLathe-39.jpgLathe-42.jpg

And here's the groove in the tailstock he predicted.

Lathe-44.jpg

I took it to a couple machine shops yesterday. No one in town has a morse taper reamer. I am having one of them braze the broken tool rest, though.

Lathe-31.jpg

I'll see if any of the machine shops in the neighboring towns have any. I'm not holding my breath, though. I might end up having to take it to Oklahoma City.

[David DeCristoforo]

Not spinning in the cast iron. That's babbitt. Search the web for "pouring babbitt". There's lots of tutorials and videos on the subject.

[Jason Edwards]

It has babbit bearings. Babbit is a lead-tin alloy that is just about the same color as the cast iron. It is melted and poured in and then machined to size You can see the babbit on a few of the pictures. Used to be very common but now only done by specialists. Lasts forever if properly lubricated. Don't run it at modern speeds though, keep it under 1800 RPM or so. You'll want oil at those speeds, not grease.

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Do you have two banjos Jeff ??, the long toolrest needs to be used with two banjos, if it was used with just one banjo, that would possibly have caused the break you have there, good weld will make it usable again, but find a way to steady it, preferably with a second banjo, if you ever want to use it.

Does the knob on the tailstock have a short un-threaded part that fits the groove in the spindle ??, it should have that, or else it might not be the original part for it, if it has thread all the way to the end, that could be damaged, and in return damage the thread in the tailstock.

The shaft and bearing blocks look good, they have been looked after well, were there any shims ??, just wondering about that

If the bearing blocks have babbit in it, you can easily find out, as it quite soft material, and with a sharp point you can scratch the babbit.

I done only a couple of babbit pours, we used a piece of shaft that was the same diameter as the shaft that did runs in it, set that in the bearings and placed two thin pieces of sheet metal between the two halve bearing blocks up against the piece of shaft and poured the babbit, (blocks set on their side) after that the grease opening was drilled and the channel scraped into the babbit, like is showing in your bearing, or in a X way, for distributing the grease, shims would added if needed for free running of the shaft, anyway you don’t have to worry for any of that for a while, if you keep it lubricated properly 1thumb.gif

[Jeff Spaulding]

I've got two banjos, so no problem there. I always just assumed the guy dropped it on the concrete floor. It was broken when I bought it, so there's no way of telling.

I'll check the screw on the knob tomorrow. It doesn't look like there's any damage to the slot, though.

Babbits, eh? I assumed those were... well, more bearing like, from the context. I'll look those up and see what I can find out about them.

There were no shims. I assume that's a good sign, since the spindle doesn't have any back-and-forth play.

So... talked to some machine shops again today.

Turns out one of the machine shops here specializes in spindle repair. A machinist in a neighboring town turned me on to them. I took the spindle and tailstock over there and talked to one of the guys.

He said he could figure out a way to do it, but it'd cost a lot of money (they do industrial stuff and are priced accordingly). He did say, if it came to it, he'd order me the necessary reamers for cost plus shipping - about $130 for both. He recommended another place, but while they'll do the tailstock for $60 or $70, they can't do the headstock. They're just not set up for it.

I might just have to live with the taper as is, at least in the headstock.

[Brian Myers]

It has babbit bearings. Babbit is a lead-tin alloy that is just about the same color as the cast iron. It is melted and poured in and then machined to size You can see the babbit on a few of the pictures. Used to be very common but now only done by specialists. Lasts forever if properly lubricated. Don't run it at modern speeds though, keep it under 1800 RPM or so. You'll want oil at those speeds, not grease.

You can do more than 1800 rpms with babbit , 3000 rpms should not be a problem with proper lubrication for spindle turning.

[Jeff Spaulding]

I'm not an expert on such things, so all this should be taken with a grain of salt. I didn't know what a babbitt bearing was before today.

From what I'm seeing (and the reading I've done on babbitts), I don't think this thing was ever set up for oil. There's no well at the bottom of the bearings. It may have been covered up if the bearings were ever repoured, I suppose. There are also no grooves in the bearing to distribute oil - only the wide slit at the top.

I'll check tomorrow when I go out there, but I don't think there is any opening in the cast iron on the bottom for oil. The only opening I'm seeing is in the top, where the grease cups are.

I'm running under the assumption that this lathe was meant to run using grease instead of oil. There's also Leo's testimony that he worked on similar lathes using grease for lubricant.

Right now, I'm estimating the maximum speed of the lathe to be about equal to the motor speed of 1750 RPM (the pulley on the motor is about the same diameter as the smallest pulley on the spindle). The bearings appear to be in good shape, but of course I don't know if it was ever run at top speed - the motor isn't original (as the lathe was supplied from CME without a motor - this was made in the days of overhead shafts and wide belts) and the previous owner passed away.

At this point, I think what I'll end up doing is running it as is (after cleaning it up and putting automotive grease in it) and keeping an eye on how hot the bearings get. Anyone have an idea how hot is too hot for these?

Also, found this when I zoomed in on a picture of one of the lower bearings (it's on the casting, not the bearing itself):

popsci.jpg

Someone's idea of a gasket, maybe?

[Jason Edwards]

That's a shim for lubrication clearance between the babbit and the shaft. Paper makes a great shim in oily applications. Lasts just about forever. Most paper is about .003", which is just about the clearance you'd want in that application.

[Jeff Spaulding]

Oh, that's what people have been meaning by "shim." I was assuming thin pieces of metal for some reason.

That makes more sense now.

[Don Bunce]

Jeff,
I've been using grease on my lathe for over 20 yrs now, no problems. The bearings will warm up a bit, but not hot.

I don't remember ever seeing a lathe like this that didn't have a right hand thread on the inboard side, and a left hand thread on the outboard side. This allows you to turn larger pieces on the outboard end of the lathe. Your hand wheel or whatever should be able to be unscrewed. If this is the case, you might want to have two adaptors made, one RH, and one LH. Or you could have it double threaded, so it will fit on either end. Delta made their faceplates this way.

Another idea is to put a No.2 MT in the adaptor, so any centers, etc, could be used. To remove it, you would unscrew the adaptor, and knock out the center.

One disadvantage of a wood bed lathe is that aligning the tailstock to the headstock is difficult because of the lack of precision. Not a problem for turning spindles, but could be a problem for drilling holes for pepper mills, etc.

[Jeff Spaulding]

The lathe head is listed as "double ended" in the catalog, so I figured it'd be threaded as well. There's a faceplate on the back of the headstock in one of the pictures in there. I tried using a pipe wrench (not in the area on the bearings!) and trying to unscrew the wheel (left-hand first, then right), but it didn't budge.

Of course, my headstock doesn't exactly match either of the headstocks in the catalog. It's close, but not quite the same.

The wheel feels too light to have been original. Nothing on this lathe is light, besides that wheel. It also only has three holes in it (a four-hole pattern with one hole missing), so I don't think it was meant to be a faceplate. It does make a nice handwheel, though - fits nicely in the hand and gives you good leverage.

If I really need to turn something off the bed, I can always turn the headstock around. It'd run backwards, of course. I doubt I'll ever do it though - moving the headstock around might increase the inaccuracy you were talking about.

This lathe was offered with an optional iron bed (minimum size 6' long). I'm rather glad it didn't have one, really - I'd never be able to move it. For shorter pieces, I can use my drill press. For longer ones, I can shim the headstock or tailstock as needed. I honestly don't see myself making many kits, though - it's not really my style.

I'm waiting on a reply back from bestwoodtools about an adapter with a morse taper. It'll be Monday at the earliest before I hear from them.

Regarding the grease, I'm probably going to run it at low speeds for now until I talk to the guys over at OWWM. No offense to the guys here, but I'm getting conflicting opinions on the grease vs. oil thing, and I really don't want to do any damage to the lathe. A second opinion from there might clench it for me. I'll keep an eye on the bearing heat. If I find evidence the lathe was originally supposed to be oiled, I'll probably have this converted back. Those sure look like greasepots in the catalog, though.

I'm staring to wonder if I should have just built a spring-pole lathe - so much simpler.