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Thread: Advice on an antique lathe

  1. #1
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    Advice on an antique lathe

    I picked up this antique lathe from an auction recently, and I want to learn to turn on it. I'm aware this is probably not the recommended way to learn to turn. Please excuse me (and by all means, correct me) if I get any terminology wrong.

    This is a Chicago Machinery Exchange #2 lathe. It looks an awful lot like the one in their 1919 catalog on vintagemachinery.org.

    Lathe-05.jpgLathe-03.jpg

    It's currently in storage until I can make room for it in my shop (I'm ballparking it at ten feet long, and I'm in a narrow 1930s era 1-car garage), hence why it's disassembled in the pictures.

    So, my questions:

    It's got pink goop in the greasepots above the bushings. Anyone know what that stuff is? I'm assuming I fill the pots and then close the lid to squeeze the grease into the bushings, but I'm not a machinery guy and haven't worked with this stuff before. Any advice would be very welcome.

    Lathe-11.jpgLathe-13.jpg

    I have no idea what taper (if any, but it looks tapered inside) the headstock has. The original was sold with two faceplates (which I have) and two drives (which I do not have). There's a bevel just inside the spindle. By crude measurement (using a rusty old pair of lathe calipers that came with it), the diameter just past that bevel is about 5/8". Any ideas? I don't know any lathe guys, and that headstock probably weighs 100lbs, so taking it to someone will be difficult. I was thinking, if the spindle is hollow all the way through (I see no light but it might just be clogged with sawdust), I might be able to put plaster in there and then take the plaster to a machine shop to compare with their tapers. This nagging voice in the back of my head is telling me that's a stupid idea, though.

    I haven't checked the tailstock. It's a bit hard to get to where it is right now. If it's tapered as well, would it have been common practice at the time for the tapers on the headstock and tailstock to match? Also, this knob on top - locking knob, or something else? I can't reach under it to check if there's a lever on the other side.

    Lathe-14.jpg

    The 1919 catalog suggests the lathe be powered with 1-3HP. The motor on it is 3/4HP. This thing has a pretty decent swing - should I scrounge up a more powerful motor? The guy who used to own this apparently used it as is, but I have no idea what he used it for. Is 3/4HP sufficient? Would it be worth my time to upgrade? I'm not sure what I'll be turning on it yet.

    Any significance to the wheel on the back of the headstock? It's got four holes in it. It's not crowned for a belt, and in any case the wooden stepped pulley is original to the lathe. The thing is huge. I'm wondering if was meant to double as a behind-the-head faceplate.

    Lathe-09.jpg

    The long toolrest has a broken leg on it. It's cast iron. I figure it's probably hopeless, but if anyone knows a way I could fix it, let me know. I don't know much about metal.

    This lathe appears to have been in working condition when I bought it. I'd like to keep it that way. While I'm not planning on selling it, I'd like to keep it as original as I can, although I'm open to suggestions for useful modifications. Mostly I just want to be able to use it without doing something stupid and destroying a beautiful antique.

    Any advice is more than welcome.

  2. #2
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    That s cool vintage wood-bed lathe you scored. Just know you have some restoration to do before turning. That's OK though and many of us do that. You might also check out the Old Woodworking Machines forum for experience there. Whomever put that pink goop in had no idea what they were doing. Those are oil cups for the bearings. Can you show close up photos of the headstock and tail stock taper? If you are lucky they are MT2 or MT3 for which you can get plenty of accessories. The other thing to measure is the size of the arbor thread under the faceplate.

    Doug

    Oh, and you could get it running on the motor while looking for something bigger. 2HP is probably fine.

  3. #3
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    Can't give specific help but I have a 100 year old metal lathe and it has grease cups like yours for the Babbitt bearings. Grease comes in different colors. They are not for oil!

  4. #4
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    Technically the cup is a grease cup (screw cap) but its not what's supposed to be there, Doug is right that it should be an oiler setup not grease - google search for "babbitt lube" to get some useful data. Something like Green Velvet Medium http://www.steamenginelube.com/orders/GV-1-order.html probably wouldn't spray to horribly. I'd probably also pull the headstock apart if its not to frozen and clean it up and put some packing into the (likely) hole in the bottom of the babbitt as well.. but that starts to be a big project, simpler would be to just wash the grease out, replace the cup and add an oiler cup with a wick and call it a day. Sometimes when you pull stuff like this apart you find lots of things you didn't want to know... I would check the spindle for slop and runout though, and decide what to do once you've checked that out.. more complex re-mediation may be required.

    I'd keep the motor you have for now, it'll be fine (unless its to fast) until you can find something else. Eventually a nice upgrade would be a 3 phase motor plus a VFD to get you variable speed. I wouldn't personally bother with anything less.

    Hard to say on the taper without fitting one in place, if you = http://littlemachineshop com/reference/tapers.php (replace spaces with the appropriate as per site TOS).
    I'd be tempted to get a spur center with an mt2 taper (like http://www amazon com/PSI-Woodworking-LCENTSS22-1-Inch-Center/dp/B000KICD52 ) and some layout fluid (like http://www amazon com/Dykem-80300-Steel-Layout-Brush-/dp/B0018ACR6G ) and see how well it mated in the taper. If you're lucky that's all there is to it, if not you're out $20 you can probably reclaim most of by reselling the taper to someone. I would bet both tapers are the same, I wouldn't bet on them being standard.. but you might be lucky.

    The knob on top of the tailstock locks the spindle from moving in/out. Hopefully its not all frozen in place..

    The wheel on the back of the headstock is mostly likely a user added hand wheel - useful for turning the workpiece with the lathe motor off to check it over or sand or .. etc..

    You can get a new post brazed onto the toolrest, look for someone who does silicon bronze brazing like : https://www youtube com/watch?v=y6ccw7X8zeI
    whether its worth it or not depends on your local market.. but its a pretty simple braze job so shouldn't be to bad.


    Oh and - cool lathe!!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Rutherford View Post
    Can't give specific help but I have a 100 year old metal lathe and it has grease cups like yours for the Babbitt bearings. Grease comes in different colors. They are not for oil!
    My naive understanding was grease for ~200rpm and less and oilers for more (usually anyway). The question here is if the grease cup was original or if someone somewhere along the way got tired of it slinging oil and replaced the original oilers with a grease cup. My vote is that its a replacement.. but not actually positive...

  6. #6
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    Wow, great responses. I walk off to make dinner and come back to four replies.

    I don't have any pictures of the headstock or tailstock taper. I might be going back out there tonight, though, and if so I'll take some.

    This is the closest I've got:

    Lathe-16.jpg

    I know morse tapers existed for a while before this lathe was built. I'm hoping I get lucky too .

    Oh, and the thread is 1 1/8" outside the thread. Didn't have a ruler with me so I put a crescent wrench on it and measured it at home. I'll bring one with me tonight when I go back out there and find out the TPI.

    The grease cups look like the headstock in the catalog. Here's the catalog: http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/174/2120.pdf. It's on page 27. I'm not sure what you mean by "slop" and "runout," but the spindle does move about 1/16" along its axis. I'd rather not take it apart until I get it in my workshop, though... I know me, I'd lose something vital. Nothing is locked up - I spun everything and turned everything before I bought it, I just don't remember what that knob on the back did. You're probably right about it being the lock, though.

    VFD would be nice. I don't have the budget for it for the foreseeable future, though. I was thinking of getting an actual leather belt, turning a pulley to mount above the lathe, and running it old school. Eyeballing the size of the motor pulley and the stepped pulley, I'd guess max speed is about the motor speed (1750), and it goes slower from there. A matching stepped pulley mounted above might give me more speed options.

    The wheel doesn't look like the one in the catalog, so I'm betting you're right about it being a replacement.

    I had no idea you could braze cast iron. Actually, yes I did - I've got a couple planes that have been brazed... DUH! Thanks for the tip, I'll look into that.

  7. #7
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    I have a lathe that looks virtually identical to yours, although it has no markings on it. It has a swing of 26", the spindle has a 2 1/4" x 4 1/2 thread, RH on the inboard side, LH on the outboard end. It has a No.3 Morse taper.

    Mine has the same grease cups, I tried oil and it all ran out, so I filled them with grease. There is no slop in the bearings.

    You will want to disassemble the headstock, and remove all the old grease and other crud. Keep track of any shims on the bearing covers, and reassemble them the same as they came off. Mine had many layers of paint, so I stripped it to bare metal, primed, and painted.

    My 3 legged outboard tool rest looks identical to the one pictured in the catalog also.

    I have a 1 HP motor on mine, which has worked fine, although I haven't roughed out any 3' logs on it. A 3 HP VFD would be the way to go.

    The small tailstock is from a Rockwell/Delta 12" heavy duty wood lathe for size comparison.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Don Bunce; 07-27-2015 at 10:25 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Bunce View Post
    I have a lathe that looks virtually identical to yours, although it has no markings on it. It has a swing of 26", the spindle has a 2 1/4" x 4 1/2 thread, RH on the inboard side, LH on the outboard end. It has a No.3 Morse taper.

    Mine has the same grease cups, I tried oil and it all ran out, so I filled them with grease. There is no slop in the bearings.

    You will want to disassemble the headstock, and remove all the old grease and other crud. Keep track of any shims on the bearing covers, and reassemble them the same as they came off. Mine had many layers of paint, so I stripped it to bare metal, primed, and painted.

    My 3 legged outboard tool rest looks identical to the one pictured in the catalog also.

    I have a 1 HP motor on mine, which has worked fine, although I haven't roughed out any 3' logs on it. A 3 HP VFD would be the way to go.

    The small tailstock is from a Rockwell/Delta 12" heavy duty wood lathe for size comparison.
    Don is that your backup if your 3520 can't cut it? Great job cleaning her up!
    Member Illiana Woodturners

  9. #9
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    It does look very similar. The tailstock's a bit different, but my tailstock is where "Chicago Machine Exchange" is cast. Strangely, your tailstock has the lever shown in the catalog, where mine has a knob. Of course, the knob may not be original.

    I wish I had the lathe here, it would make things so much easier. Have to rub down the finish on my cabinet and get it out of my shop first.

    I just measured the threads - 1 1/8", 10TPI. Went on Nova's site, thinking since they're so popular, they'd have an insert for my spindle thread if anyone did. Nope. Have to get a blank and get it machined...

    How do you like working on the old lathe? I've never used a lathe at all, so I'm interested in hearing an experienced turner's impression.

    Edit: forgot to mention, the spindle isn't hollow. It goes back about four inches. Not sure if that means anything, taper-wise.
    Last edited by Jeff Spaulding; 07-28-2015 at 12:14 AM.

  10. #10
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    Interesting information about the cups. I have always seen oil used for babbitt, but it does need a wick to regulate release.

    There is a company that makes adapters for odd sizes like these old machines. I will try to find a link. You could get an adapter for 1 1/8" x 10 tpi - 1 1/4"x 8 tpi for common tooling. Also Vicmark makes a vacuum chuck adapter that does not require a shaft through the spindle. May be handy in the future.

    Edit: I believe this is it. Try giving them a call.
    http://bestwoodtools.stores.yahoo.net/prstspadwith.html
    Last edited by Doug Ladendorf; 07-28-2015 at 8:49 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Spaulding View Post
    It does look very similar. The tailstock's a bit different, but my tailstock is where "Chicago Machine Exchange" is cast. Strangely, your tailstock has the lever shown in the catalog, where mine has a knob. Of course, the knob may not be original.

    I wish I had the lathe here, it would make things so much easier. Have to rub down the finish on my cabinet and get it out of my shop first.

    I just measured the threads - 1 1/8", 10TPI. Went on Nova's site, thinking since they're so popular, they'd have an insert for my spindle thread if anyone did. Nope. Have to get a blank and get it machined...

    How do you like working on the old lathe? I've never used a lathe at all, so I'm interested in hearing an experienced turner's impression.

    Edit: forgot to mention, the spindle isn't hollow. It goes back about four inches. Not sure if that means anything, taper-wise.


    That spindle is an odd one neither Vicmarc nor Oneway list an insert in that size and they both do a good number of inserts for their chucks. The 1-1/8" size seems to be 7,8 or 12 tpi for chuck inserts.
    Last edited by Brian Myers; 07-28-2015 at 9:12 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Thanks for the link - I was planning on just ordering a blank from Nova and having a local machine shop cut it to my threads, but your option might be better - especially if I don't have a standard taper. Either way, it'd make it easier to put different chucks on.

    The only thing I'm worried there is the threads - if they're nonstandard threads, I might end up buying an expensive paperweight.

    I figure what I'll do is pull the tailstock out from where it's at and get the center out of it, then test it against the headstock. If it matches, I'll take the center and a faceplate to a machine shop and see if anyone can identify the thread and taper. Maybe they could also tell me what the pink goop in the greasepots is - proper lubrication is my biggest worry at this point.

    I might jump over to the vintage tools forum and ask about the lubrication options... the guy who owned this before was a dentist, not a machinist, and he had a delta lathe in addition to this old one. He might not be the best authority on lubrication. I can't ask him because he's no longer with us. It's a pity - I saw some examples of his work at the estate sale, and he did some great stuff.

    Anything special about wicks I need to know about? Materials to use, etc.? Do they even use anything like this anymore?

  13. #13
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    Did the pink stuff smell like bubble gum? Maybe it was some of that tooth polish they use...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Spaulding View Post
    Thanks for the link - I was planning on just ordering a blank from Nova and having a local machine shop cut it to my threads, but your option might be better - especially if I don't have a standard taper. Either way, it'd make it easier to put different chucks on.

    The only thing I'm worried there is the threads - if they're nonstandard threads, I might end up buying an expensive paperweight.

    I figure what I'll do is pull the tailstock out from where it's at and get the center out of it, then test it against the headstock. If it matches, I'll take the center and a faceplate to a machine shop and see if anyone can identify the thread and taper. Maybe they could also tell me what the pink goop in the greasepots is - proper lubrication is my biggest worry at this point.

    I might jump over to the vintage tools forum and ask about the lubrication options... the guy who owned this before was a dentist, not a machinist, and he had a delta lathe in addition to this old one. He might not be the best authority on lubrication. I can't ask him because he's no longer with us. It's a pity - I saw some examples of his work at the estate sale, and he did some great stuff.

    Anything special about wicks I need to know about? Materials to use, etc.? Do they even use anything like this anymore?
    Oneway does special thread adaptors for their chucks, link here

    http://oneway.ca/index.php?route=pro...ecial%20thread

    Morse taper or other standard types of tapers are available, but the Morse taper is the most common one used in lathe spindles, a link for sizes here

    http://littlemachineshop.com/reference/tapers.php

    As for your grease pots, I’ve worked with them, the cap is filled with grease (general automotive chassis grease is fine), and the cap is screed down till grease shows in the gaps on the outside of the bearings, then every few hours you hive the cap a twist to add some new grease into the bearings, in the old days they didn’t have or use special grease in these machines I would not be to worried about that, the machines are tough as that’s how they were build.

    It seems the thought is there are babit bearings in there, but some used bronze bearings and even just cast iron was used as a bearing material, there is nothing bad going to happen opening the bearing caps here, there might be shims between the two bearing halves, make sure you keep them together for each side, so you have the same ones going back in the same place when you reassemble it again.

    Wicks are only used with oil, and I am quite sure there are no wicks in there.

    Take it apart, clean it out (though the grease is probably still just fine) and make some pictures to show what you really have, as now it is all guessing.
    Last edited by Leo Van Der Loo; 07-28-2015 at 11:03 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Thanks, Leo. It's good to have advice on the grease from someone who has worked with this kind of machine. Keeping it in working condition is my #1 priority. When I get it moved, I'll do like you say and open it up and clean it out and see what's in there. When I start using it, I'll have to remember to make greasing the bearings part of my routine.

    I dug out the stuff in front of the tailstock and pulled it out. The good news is that the headstock and tailstock seem to have the same taper. The bad news is the live center that was in the tailstock doesn't fit. It sticks about halfway out.

    Lathe-23.jpg

    (Please excuse the flash - it was after dark and there's no electricity out there.)

    Going by what I measured (5/8"), I'm going to guess it's a Jarno #5 taper. That's just a guess, though. It seems to fit the time period, and there's a lot of dead centers for those on ebay that had to come from somewhere.

    I'll probably go with my original plan of putting something in the taper to measure it. Not plaster though - both tapers bottom out, so plaster would be hard to remove intact. Besides, the tailstock weighs a ton and I'm not comfortable trying to get it to stand on the wheel on a concrete floor - it'd be just my luck to drop it and crack it in half.

    While I do like the fact that it's an antique machine, I'm awfully tempted to have both sides reamed to 2MT. It'd really simplify things for me.

    Here's some better pictures of the tailstock, now that I've dug it out:

    Lathe-24.jpgLathe-27.jpg

    The knob is indeed the locking knob. It works fine. One thing I noticed - if I back the tailstock in all the way, the wheel keeps going but the tailstock starts turning. When that happens, you can't make it come back out without tightening the top knob. I found this out accidentally - I've seen videos where people eject their centers by retracting the tailstock all the way. That didn't work for me (must be a feature on newer lathes - the tailstock only retracts so that it's flush with the casing), but a couple light taps with that clamp sitting next to it popped it out fine.

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