CBN wheel on Tormek?

[John K Jordan]

I do have metal dust trailing the edge which is kind of irritating.

You might try the demagnetizer - it completely removes the irritation. I use a bulk tape demagnetizer I've had for over 40 years. (Yikes, that says something about my age and my inability to throw anything away!) I keep it plugged in by the sharpening station and it demagnetizes the end of a tool completely in about 5 seconds.

I see there are various tool demagnetizers available on Amazon but I have no experience with them.

A question is how my lathe tools get magnetized repeatedly, even when they never come in contact with a magnet. I'm wondering if it is the earth's magnetic field. Any ferromagnetic object left in one position in the earth's field will eventually become magnetized. A compass moved up and down a steel kitchen appliance will show this. I've even seen this effect on steel cans on the pantry shelf and in checking just now, on a door hinge, a tool box, and a gun safe.

I've read that a piece of steel will become magnetized more rapidly if held in a magnetic field and subjected to vibrations, such as striking it. Maybe a gouge gets magnetized since it is usually held in about the same position in the shop and subjected to vibrations from the turning.

JKJ

[Reed Gray]

I am starting to think that hoods and dust collection for grinders should become standard for our shops. That metal dust does float, and doesn't just cling to your tools. I do wipe mine off before finish turning, and my hands too because it leaves lots of black freckles if I don't.

robo hippy

[Ken Schroeder]

I recently purchased a 180 grit D-Way CBN wheel for my Tormek. I happen to have both a T7 and a T4 Tormek. I chose to start with a CBN wheel for the 8" diameter T4. (In considering which Tormek to purchase, do not factor in cost. Make your choice based on your use. The heavier T7 is nice for stationary operation. The lightweight T4 is a joy to move if you have a smaller, more mobile shop. Avoid the T3 with its overheating all plastic housing; the issue was corrected with the redesigned machined zinc top of the T4.)


My first test with the new CBN wheel was reshaping a half inch turning gouge from jig setting 2 to jig setting 4. I did the first side dry and the second side wet. Both sides were easily reshaped in a minute each. The dry side gave the impression if cutting slightly faster. The wet side seemed to give a slightly smoother finish. I was happy with both wet and dry performance.


My second test was the standard procedure I have adopted to test grinding wheels. I place a square metal lathe bit in the Tormek square edge jig, set a 30° bevel and grind for five minutes. The (still) reigning champ is the Norton 3X 46 grit wheel used wet. It cuts about 20% faster than the 80 grit 3X wheel. The 180 grit CBN wheel seemed to match the 80 grit 3X wheel. I was pleased. I do not have an 80 grit CBN wheel. I suspect it would at least match the 46 grit 3X wheel.


Personally, I would polish the finish finer with the 180 grit CBN. Changing wheels is a breeze with the new Tormek EZYlock stainless steel shaft.


My D-Way wheel is steel. It has a 1" bore with a 12mm reducing bushing. I removed it when I was finished and carefully dried and coated it with Starrett M1 oil. It showed early signs of light rust after this careful initial use. I still hope to use it wet. My next test is to try using Honerite Gold. It will either prevent the rust or it won't. If it works, I will continue using the wheel wet. I like the very cool, dust and spark free wet environment of the Tormek. The CBN wheel requires less water and does not seem to absorb any water. Using a turkey baster makes using the water trough much less messy. Do not leave the store with a new Tormek and no turkey baster!


If I still have rust, I will switch to dry. I will try using magnets wrapped in plastic wrap. When the wrap is removed, the steel magnetic "dust" should fall off and be easily cleaned.


I do not sharpen planer blades. I would guess the CBN wheel would sharpen these very efficiently.


My standard Tormek SG grinding wheel is still my "go to" wheel for general sharpening. I am not an active turner, so I do not think I would need a coarser 80 grit CBN wheel. I will eventually look into a finer CBN wheel. I like the combination of Tormek and CBN.


Ken

[John K Jordan]

...If I still have rust, I will switch to dry.
...I am not an active turner, so I do not think I would need a coarser 80 grit CBN wheel.

Ken, If you get another wheel, you might look into an aluminum wheel, assuming you are talking about rust on the wheel itself, not from the steel dust. Some non-water lubricant might be good too. I've been using a little of the Trend honing fluid that Reed Grey suggested and it works well, but is horribly expensive. Perhaps there is another inexpensive fluid that will work.

The magnets work well to pick up the dust. I'm about to construct a bracket for my Tormek to hold magnets close to the wheel to pull the dust off the wheel as it comes over the top. I'm considering some plastic shield tougher than a thin plastic wrap or bag - the force of enough accumulated dust is enough to tear thin plastic. Another thing I want to try is one of those magnetic bases made for dial indicators that can be switched on and off.

One question about your standard grinding wheel test. Reed indicated that in his experience CBN wheels need to be "broken in", I think he said with a month of use, before they stabilize. Was your test after a break-in period? If not, you might repeat the test after some extensive use of that wheel.

BTW, turning is mostly what I do. I can't imagine any turner needing coarser than an 80 grit CBN but that is based on the way I work. I do have an 80 grit CBN mounted on one 8" grinder - I use it only rarely when I want to remove a lot of metal for reshaping. It is far too coarse for a finished edge for me. Once my turning tools are shaped the 600 grit wheel on the Tormek gives me a new sharp edge in just a few seconds with a jig, a bit longer freehand. In fact, I'm still considering getting a 1000 grit wheel for the Tormek. Of course, most of my turning is on smaller things with skews and spindle gouges so my sharpening needs and methods are probably different than most. E.g, I don't rely on a burr raised by a grinder but burnish burrs on scrapers. I do polish the edge of most tools, inside and out, using the Tormek leather honing wheels and compound - not a mirror polish over the bevel but enough to make the edge razor sharp.

JKJ

[Ken Schroeder]

John,
Thank you for your reply. As I stated, the CBN wheel is a new purchase (and a new technology) for me. Although I have owned a dry grinder since 1972, my grinding has been essentially Tormek since 2009. That is not a pitch for Tormek, it's just an explanation of my thought pattern. I realize that the new CBN technology may cause a shift in my thinking. Using CBN wheels wet may or may not be practical. Having not found any solid testing, I am doing my own testing.


At this point, I have found that the CBN wheel works amazingly well, wet or dry. For me, that establishes "possible". If Honerite Gold and/or aluminum wheels can solve the rust problem, that makes it worth pursuing toward being "practical". I feel the same way about the grinding dust. I believe you are on the right path using magnets. At some point I may determine that wet grinding is not practical with CBN. Let the chips fall where they may.


I realize my initial tests will be skewed by the wheel being new and will change as the wheel "mellows". Trying to be at least somewhat scientific, I will repeat my test in a few months. I noticed the same thing after I foolishly flattened my grandfather's crystalon bench stone with my DMT flattening plate. I almost ruined a two hundred dollar diamond plate flattening a five dollar oilstone I haven't used since. (not really bright )


For most of my work, mainly chisels and knives, I think a 600 grit or finer would work very well.


Ken

[Clay Fails]

Sorry if this response misses the OP's point, but have you considered the Tormek BGM-100 jig? It allows you to use your Tormek SVD 185/186 gouge jig on the grinder wheel. I have this setup on my Baldor grinder with CBN wheels, and the T-7 as well. This setup works well for me, allowing use of either the 8 inch grinder CBN or the 10 inch Tormek stone. If the intent was to use CBN at the slower Tormek speeds, I have no experience with that setup.

[John K Jordan]

Sorry if this response misses the OP's point, but have you considered the Tormek BGM-100 jig? It allows you to use your Tormek SVD 185/186 gouge jig on the grinder wheel. I have this setup on my Baldor grinder with CBN wheels, and the T-7 as well. This setup works well for me, allowing use of either the 8 inch grinder CBN or the 10 inch Tormek stone. If the intent was to use CBN at the slower Tormek speeds, I have no experience with that setup.

I actually use both methods, the CBN on the Tormek and the Tormek jigs on the bench grinder (in addition to the Wolverine.)

Long before Tormek came out with the bench grinder adapter I ordered parts and made a mount from a block of wood. This is great since, like you, I can use the Tormek sharpening jigs with a coarse wheel on a grinder to quickly shape the tool, then move to the Tormek for sharpening. I used this with stone wheels for years but now have CBN wheels on everything.

As an experiment I plan to mount a Wolverine base on the Tormek as well to see if that would be useful at time. This would involve cutting away some of the Tormek base for clearance.

JKJ

[Ken Schroeder]

John,


I reran my metal lathe tool bit test with my now almost new CBN wheel. Its youthful "irrational exuberance" grinding has mellowed into what I would expect from a 180 grit wheel. The moral of this story is if you have a major reshaping project for a new CBN wheel to make it your first job with the new wheel! Let those new coarse grains work for you.


Two things stood out with this five minute test:
I ran it dry, and was able to keep my finger very near the cutting surface with my finger feeling no more than mildly warm.
The CBN wheel cut consistently well during the full five minutes. It did not glaze over like the SB blackstone often does for me.


With the wheel now at 180 grit, if I was an active turner, drill bit sharpener or sharpened planer blades, I would also get an 80 grit CBN wheel.


In a very unscientific test, I sharpened a blunted chisel with the CBN wheel. It felt like I was using the SG wheel graded coarse. I went directly to the leather honing wheel. The chisel looked respectfully polished for a quick sharpening. Handheld on my Edgeonup edge tester I had a BESS reading of approximately 180. That is about half the reading for a new, high end kitchen knife, (sharper). I think I can improve on that, as well as make the bevel smoother by using my second leather honing wheel with valve grinding compound.


There is more work to be done, both sharpening and woodwork. I need to work with magnets, and look ahead to a second CBN wheel at some time in the future.


Thanks for your interest.


Ken

[John K Jordan]

...
With the wheel now at 180 grit, if I was an active turner, drill bit sharpener or sharpened planer blades, I would also get an 80 grit CBN wheel.

...Handheld on my Edgeonup edge tester I had a BESS reading of approximately 180. That is about half the reading for a new, high end kitchen knife, (sharper).

Thanks for reporting your tests. I want to pass your results on to turner John Lucas who has a long-time interest in quantifying lathe tool sharpness.

This is the first I've heard of an edge tester. Is this another instrument I get to buy? I hope so! Off to Google.
Will the edge test work on compound curved edges such as spindle gouges, or does it need a straight knife-like edge?

I currently have CBN in 80 grit, 180 grit, and 600 grit (actually two 600s, one on the Tormek) which I think gives me a pretty good range. However, for the kind of turning I like best (fairly small things from hard and fine-grained woods) a mirror polish on the edge is the ideal for a good surface right off the tool. This was easy for me to get with the Tormek water wheel but not so easy with even the 600 grit wheels. I don't think a polished edge is as important when turning large and especially green wood. I would really like to try the 1000 grit that Reed Grey wrote about. Or try the 1200??

JKJ

[Ken Schroeder]

The edge tester is from edgeonup.com. It is designed for knives. It uses a scale of 0 to 2000. The number refers to the number of grams needed to cut through the standardized test media, which resembles precisely manufactured fishing line. Mike Brubacher, who designs, build and sells the testers, also devised the BESS scale. The idea is to provide a consistent measurement standard. This would allow a knife sharpener in Canada to communicate with another sharpener in Australia with a known standard.


The two anchor points are 50 and 2000 grams. Fifty represents the force needed to cut the test media with a new double edge razor blade. 2000 represents the force needed to break the test media if the razor blade is broken in two and the unsharpened inner edge is used as a test edge.


The system is accurate, easy to use and fairly inexpensive.


I am presently testing my CBN wheel used wet with the Tormek. After one session, even with meticulous care, the wheel showed signs of minor rust using plain water. Just today I started using Honerite Gold with the water. It is too early to tell, however, It seems to be eliminating the rust or at least keeping it very minimal. At $30 a bottle (250ml) it seems expensive. However, my smaller T4 Tormek only needs around 75 ml of water with the nonabsorbing CBN wheel. The Honerite is diluted 1:25. Therefore only 3ml is needed. The bottle should last for 80 sharpening sessions. If I used a Keurig instead of my Maxwell House coffee and Melitta filter, my coffee would cost more than my Honerite.


I think using the CBN wheel dry with the Tormek and a magnet rig will prove practical. I want to base that choice on field testing, even if the field is only my basement.


I like your idea with the 600 grit and finer wheels. With the EZYlock shaft, wheel changing is a snap.


Ken

[Jim Seyfried]

I actually use both methods, the CBN on the Tormek and the Tormek jigs on the bench grinder (in addition to the Wolverine.)


As an experiment I plan to mount a Wolverine base on the Tormek as well to see if that would be useful at time. This would involve cutting away some of the Tormek base for clearance.

JKJ

I have done that along with the BMG-100 jig for my dry grinder. It's nice to have options. I do have to admit with CBN wheels on the dry grinder I don't use the Tormek nearly as much as I used to.

I do have to remove the stone to clean the water tray. I also had to trim the front of the water tray for clearance. That might not be necessary with a wheel that isn't worn down smaller. I just got a new wheel I'll have to check that out.

tormekmod2.jpgtormekmod.jpg

[John K Jordan]

Ah, I see some inexpensive options on the Edgeonup web site. When I looked yesterday all I found was the $160 version where a screw device feeds the test media into the knife blade. The cheaper options should work fine. I would love to test my knife sharpening - I use a 3-belt machine for knives and while they sure seem sharp to me, it's hard to quantify the sharpness with "shaving sharp" or "slices cleanly through paper"!

JKJ

[Keith Bays]

007.jpg+1 on the 600 grit cbn. never gets any smaller. 600 grit is probably overkill for roughing but it is great for detail/finishing cuts. I can still use my other (now 7" stones) when I want to for planes scissors etc..

[Ken Schroeder]

John,

I actually have used three models of the edgeonup testers. My favorite is the PT-50. It is simpler to use than the KN-100. It is a newer design, and does not require extra weights (BBs) to use. The smaller unit is OK, however, the PT-50 is more accurate and the scale more user friendly. At $129, I think it is well worth the price difference above the smaller unit. I also like that the PT-50 comes with its own well designed postal scale. The KN-100 I use is on long term loan. The smaller unit was a gift from Mike Brubacher to test. I purchased the PT-50.I appreciate the generousity, but felt I should buy one. So, my money is where my mouth is with the PT-50. Be sure to watch the well done videos on edgeonup.com.

I am curious about the preference for the wolverine jig with the Tormek instead of the new Tormek SVD-186 gouge jig.
Incidentally, I have both the 185 and 186 jigs. The 186 is a substantial improvement. In my opinion, it is worth purchasing to upgrade from the 185.

Ken

[Clay Fails]

John,

I actually have used three models of the edgeonup testers. My favorite is the PT-50. It is simpler to use than the KN-100. It is a newer design, and does not require extra weights (BBs) to use. The smaller unit is OK, however, the PT-50 is more accurate and the scale more user friendly. At $129, I think it is well worth the price difference above the smaller unit. I also like that the PT-50 comes with its own well designed postal scale. The KN-100 I use is on long term loan. The smaller unit was a gift from Mike Brubacher to test. I purchased the PT-50.I appreciate the generousity, but felt I should buy one. So, my money is where my mouth is with the PT-50. Be sure to watch the well done videos on edgeonup.com.

I am curious about the preference for the wolverine jig with the Tormek instead of the new Tormek SVD-186 gouge jig.
Incidentally, I have both the 185 and 186 jigs. The 186 is a substantial improvement. In my opinion, it is worth purchasing to upgrade from the 185.

Ken

Ken, I agree on the usefulness of the 186 vs. the 185. I find it much easier to keep bowl gouge flutes straight in the jig with the 186.
i'm now very interested in this edge testing device. I watched the demo for the PT-50 and am intrigued. Does this work for turning tools?