logistics for a newbie (temperate, sound, etc...)

[Raphael Weil]

Hi all,

Long time reader, love the site. I finally created an account because I'd love to follow my dreams of creating a business revolving around laser engraving (primarily wood). I've been training on a 24*12 Full Spectrum laser at a shop, and admittedly it performs better than I expected after reading this site for years. As a newcomer to the industry, I hear a lot of people saying "wish I had just sprung for the 36" model, I've already outgrown this one". As a result for the last week I've really been contemplating a 36" FSL vs a 36" AT. That is until this morning, when I really understood the full scope of the infrastructure I might need to house a 36" model.

I live in Canada, and your typical garage here isn't insulated. As I understand it most of these models can't run at under 32F/0C. Half the year here that's a constraint. The large bed models require doors that are at least 40" wide if not bigger, which means getting it into a basement in a typical place also seems impossible. For me most of the attraction of doing this is being my own boss, working from home, and creating. So really I need to find a way to keep this at home.

From where I'm sitting now, I think I only have a few options, and was hoping maybe some of you long time pros could let me know if I'm missing/overlooking anything:

1) The only way I'm running the 36" models is in a heated garage that's guaranteed to stay about 32F year 'round. I can't pull off even getting the 36" model into a room without a door thats probably bigger than 40". Correct assumption?

2) Even if I manage to find such a garage, my best case with a quiet compressor in a cabinet, somehow putting the cooling unit in a cabinet, and using the typical FSL/AT fan is still going to run close to 100db, right? Or am I overestimating how quiet I could get it without actually insulating the garage first? 70db is about the sound of a vacuum, I think I could get away with that even in the a garage that's the last townhouse in a row. I just have no idea how low I could expect to get it with all the tricks of the trade, minus actually insulating the garage itself.

3) If I can't find or build such a garage (and the thought of building one has occurred to me), the quietest and most space- conscious model for engraving wood/leather/acrylic is either something like the Zing or the Speedy 100. I could run either of those out of a basement provided I could vent to a window correctly. They both retain their value fairly well (compared to FSL/AT), so if one day I'm lucky enough to have the proper space to move up to a larger model, I could sell it or keep 2 if the business warrants it.




Is anything I've mentioned here drastically incorrect?

I could ask another 50 questions, but maybe this is a good start to keep things on topic. Thanks in advance, fantastic community. I look forward to talking with many of you, and one day helping others. I can certainly help people now with any questions on the FSL. That's the limited bit of knowledge I can give back.

[Matt McCoy]

Can you insulate the garage?

[David Somers]

Raphael,

A couple of thoughts.
In terms of the larger sized unit. I am not sure if they sell to Canada, but Ray Scott at Rabbit Laser USA has gone to considerable lengths to get his lasers in through smaller than normal doors. I believe he disassembles the main frame from the base and gets it in on its side. I assume you have to carefully go over the alignment after that, but if you bought from him they would be there to take you through that as part of the setup/training. If you cant purchase through him he may be willing to talk to you about what they do to see if it is possible with the machines you are considering?

Another idea is to put in a bigger door? Likely costs less than building an entire garage?

You mention you are in a townhouse? Does your garage by any chance butt up against the house wall and a crawl space under the house? In my case I am in a single family home, but I have close neighbors and didnt want to assail them with the fan sounds. I also didnt want that noisy fan from China actually in the garage with me. It dawned on me the garage shared a wall with the crawl space under the house. I monitored the temp and humidity down there and it was very stable and moderate. So I ran my exhaust vent into that and put the blower under there and vented it out the side of the house. My neighbors say they never know it is running, and it is very quiet in the house as well as in the garage. A win all around. Since the temp and humidity in there was stable and reasonable I ran an air intake from the laser into the crawl space as well. Now in cold weather I am not pulling my nicely heated garage air into the laser and furiously pumping it outside. I stuck a little humidity/temp monitor in the laser to make sure I wasnt introducing moist air inside the unit that would later condense as it cooled and all looks fine. No problems so far. Otherwise, some kind of insulated box for the fan outside could do the trick.

In terms of temperature in the garage. One thing to consider beyond the needs of the laser is your comfort. Remember, if you are lasing wood you will want to be there with it the whole time it is running due to the risk of fire. Lots of threads here on that topic. That means you will be stuck within a few feet of the laser keeping a wary eye on things and not able to move around or do other things that require close attention. Not much to keep you warm other than thick clothes and jumping jacks. If you can get the temps up to within reason you will have a much more enjoyable time in the winter months with the laser. In my case, our furnace is in the garage. When the tech came out to do the annual adjustments to it I had him put what they call a heat robber on the main line from the furnace to the house. It can be closed or opened by hand. Given the furnace only runs when the house thermostat calls for it to run (our house is not large enough to require zoned heating) I only get heat out there when the house calls for it. But that is enough to keep the garage between 50 and 60 all through the coldest days here in Seattle. (OK....maybe we arent quite as cold as Canada <grin>) But that might be enough to keep the edge off for you and keep the laser happy too. You can help the laser with cold startups by putting a small goldenrod heater inside it over night. That will help reduce condensation inside, as well as keep the temp inside the box a bit higher than ambient. They are inexpensive, have a low electric draw, and are safer than most heaters in terms of fire hazard. A google search on goldenrod heater will locate them for you.

Hope these thoughts give you some ideas.

Dave

[Dave Sheldrake]

A 1,200mm x 900mm bed sized Chinese machine like the HPC1290 or Rabbit RL1290 can be taken apart to go through a standard 34inch door way

[Jerome Stanek]

If you garage is not to cold you can put a light bulb under the unit to keep it a little warmer. I use RV antifreeze to keep from freezing also I have a cattle water bucket that keeps the antifreeze above freezing

[Raphael Weil]

Raphael,

A couple of thoughts.
In terms of the larger sized unit. I am not sure if they sell to Canada, but Ray Scott at Rabbit Laser USA has gone to considerable lengths to get his lasers in through smaller than normal doors. I believe he disassembles the main frame from the base and gets it in on its side. I assume you have to carefully go over the alignment after that, but if you bought from him they would be there to take you through that as part of the setup/training. If you cant purchase through him he may be willing to talk to you about what they do to see if it is possible with the machines you are considering?

Another idea is to put in a bigger door? Likely costs less than building an entire garage?

You mention you are in a townhouse? Does your garage by any chance butt up against the house wall and a crawl space under the house? In my case I am in a single family home, but I have close neighbors and didnt want to assail them with the fan sounds. I also didnt want that noisy fan from China actually in the garage with me. It dawned on me the garage shared a wall with the crawl space under the house. I monitored the temp and humidity down there and it was very stable and moderate. So I ran my exhaust vent into that and put the blower under there and vented it out the side of the house. My neighbors say they never know it is running, and it is very quiet in the house as well as in the garage. A win all around. Since the temp and humidity in there was stable and reasonable I ran an air intake from the laser into the crawl space as well. Now in cold weather I am not pulling my nicely heated garage air into the laser and furiously pumping it outside. I stuck a little humidity/temp monitor in the laser to make sure I wasnt introducing moist air inside the unit that would later condense as it cooled and all looks fine. No problems so far. Otherwise, some kind of insulated box for the fan outside could do the trick.

In terms of temperature in the garage. One thing to consider beyond the needs of the laser is your comfort. Remember, if you are lasing wood you will want to be there with it the whole time it is running due to the risk of fire. Lots of threads here on that topic. That means you will be stuck within a few feet of the laser keeping a wary eye on things and not able to move around or do other things that require close attention. Not much to keep you warm other than thick clothes and jumping jacks. If you can get the temps up to within reason you will have a much more enjoyable time in the winter months with the laser. In my case, our furnace is in the garage. When the tech came out to do the annual adjustments to it I had him put what they call a heat robber on the main line from the furnace to the house. It can be closed or opened by hand. Given the furnace only runs when the house thermostat calls for it to run (our house is not large enough to require zoned heating) I only get heat out there when the house calls for it. But that is enough to keep the garage between 50 and 60 all through the coldest days here in Seattle. (OK....maybe we arent quite as cold as Canada <grin>) But that might be enough to keep the edge off for you and keep the laser happy too. You can help the laser with cold startups by putting a small goldenrod heater inside it over night. That will help reduce condensation inside, as well as keep the temp inside the box a bit higher than ambient. They are inexpensive, have a low electric draw, and are safer than most heaters in terms of fire hazard. A google search on goldenrod heater will locate them for you.

Hope these thoughts give you some ideas.

Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the amazing post (thanks to everyone who has replied for that matter. To answer your question, I'm trying to pick my next home in accordance with my budget vs my ability to house a laser/shop in it. The more I learn about the large lasers, the more I figure I either need that warm garage, or another setup entirely .

Am I correct in assuming that a basement could absolutely house a Zing or Speedy 100 sitting on a table if the ventilation is good? It seems like the easiest way for me to get my feet wet without needing a lot of house. I also have some back issues, so being comfortable during engraving is a big plus for me. A comfortable renovated basement sounds a lot better than a cold garage right about now.

I genuinely didn't know about the fire risk. I'll try and dig up the old threads before asking my specific questions. I assumed that since my pieces are going in stained with 3-4 coats that my fire risk was fairly low, but I honestly don't know much about that. I've yet to see anything remotely close to even an ember in my time working a machine. Perhaps it's because it's so humid here pretty much all the time.

Thanks again for the advice, I'll go dig up those threads.

[Rich Harman]

Regarding fire risk, it is real. I've imported two machines. One of them was destroyed when the second owner left it briefly unattended. A couple more minutes and he could have lost the house.

There are other users here that have had fires. The common theme is that it happened very quickly when they just stepped away for a few moments.

[David Somers]

Raphael,

As Rich said, the fire risk is very real. And they can occur very fast. There are lots of posts about this with photos and horror stories. Scott Shepard had some lovely photos of a laser fire in his shop, which is a busy, well staffed shop. If I remember right the person running that laser just stepped away for a minute and poof. As a rule of thumb when we burn wood or paper or acrylic..anything organic and flammable, most of us keep a spritzer bottle of water handy, the kind you might use to keep plants moist? That does the trick when you catch it fast. And if things get worse a CO2 extinguisher is nice because it works effectively without leaving a residue on everything in the laser, which is a pain to clean up. Again, lots of posts on this stuff and alternatives to those two methods as well. Regular ABC units work fine but they coat everything and are a bear to clean up from. They are less expensive than CO2 though if you dont account for your time cleaning up. Incidentally, I found my CO2 extinguisher at a local fire extinguisher service facility. They had a good used one that had passed its hydro test and been put back in service. Saved me a bundle.

A basement is fine with a small unit. Or even a large one for that matter if it can be taken down there. Dave Sheldrake's post above the units being taken apart and carried in pieces through narrow doors is spot on. If you can vent outside that is the best. There are also filters you can use if you can't vent to the outside, but they tend to be pricey to buy and maintain, unless you make your own. And even then you want to be totally sure you are not filling your home with smoke and fume. Partners and spouses take a dim view of that as I understand it? <grin> Dan Hintz has a nice post on a home made unit he did that a number of folks have put into use. I think it is also on his SMC blog which can save you some searching. Hopefully people will see this and can say how they like it? My preference would be to blow the fumes outside though if your neighborhood can deal with it. I am lucky in that the prevailing winds blow the output of my blower in a direction where it has time to disperse before it gets near another house. Been OK so far. And I keep in touch with my neighbors to be sure I am not being a pest to them with noise and fumes.

If you dont really want to move you may find that insulating the garage is not that big a deal. If the studs are exposed you are golden. If they are sheetrocked over then you can have insulation blown in fairly cheaply. Put insulation onto the panels of the garage door as well and make sure it seals halfway well around the outside. Then a modest sized heater should do the trick to keep it in the 50 degree range. Good enough for a sweater and sweatpants, and fine for the laser. Then you just need a decent chair that supports your back and lets you see into the machine. Then you can have the larger machine you want.

If you do go with the Zing or Speedy and then later move someplace bigger you will find they have nice resale value. Or even better, they become a second machine for busy days or an alternate device if your main rig fails. Or maybe your partner will get the laser bug and want a machine of their own! <grin>

Dave

[Raphael Weil]

Thanks again for the great advice.

Would you say that the dryness of the wood has a pretty big impact on the ability to catch fire? Sounds like airflow is the #1 killer when it comes to fires, so I'll be extremely careful about that. I guess I'll also just engrave far less than I thought I would if it requires such constant attention.

Are insurance companies fairly keen to cover policies with hobbiests and pros doing this at home? Sounds like they'd be crazy not to charge and arm and a leg for insurance if fire is such a possibility.

[Michael Hunter]

Sound worries -

Exhaust :
Although many here use the 1.5kW dust extract fans (cheap and powerful), these are very noisy as the blades are designed more for not getting blocked by wood shavings than for aerodynamic efficiency.
My Epilog was supplied with an in-line centrifugal fan (with very fine blades) as used for air conditioning and ventilation. although only 115W this provides a very good airflow and makes less noise than the cooling fans on the Epilog.

Compressor :
The small diaphragm type compressors are generally much quieter than the piston types.
My little Gast pump is annoying to me - I turn it off when it is not needed - but is quiet enough that the neighbours can't hear it.
I don't like to box it in because I'm worried about it overheating.
Occasionally I need more pressure and I have a hobby type paint spray compressor for that, but it is deafening in use!

[David Somers]

Good morning Raphael!

Wood moistness is certainly a factor. But unless you have some special projects in mind for green wood keep in mind you will probably be using kiln dried wood of some sort, whether it is solid wood or plywood. At the moisture levels you will find in those woods the fire risk differences are going to be relatively minor. Air flow certainly effects the severity and likelihood of a flare up. But as you work with the machines it doesn't take much time before you know how to dial in your various materials for the best results. They can still flare up though so having airflow adjusted well doesn't reduce the need to keep a wary eye on things. Wood moisture can vary from one point on your stock to another depending on your storage conditions. So as you happily burn your way through a job you might find a sudden flare up due to a change in the wood at a particular point. It could be moisture, a sap pocket, a different wood used for a plug in a ply, etc. You just have to watch that stuff.

In terms of avoiding engraving because of the fire risk. Engraving or cutting can cause it. And you just need to be prepared to be watching your laser as it runs. It is something we all have to deal with. The trick is probably to have things you can do with divided attention while the job is running, and to be comfortably seated or standing so you can see into the machine. It isnt wasted time, but it is not time you can devote to things that require close attention either.

My Chinese laser is rather tall. I use a stool height chair or just stand when I am monitoring it. And I have my laptop set up on a rolling, adjustable height cart that is right next to the laser and I can roll it anywhere I need to have a good view of the inside of the unit as it runs. That has worked well. Folks who are doing much longer running jobs than me can probably make suggestions to you as well. I would not let the fire issue put you off to the types of things you want to do. Just set yourself up so that you can be on hand and comfortable while it runs.

I cant speak to the insurance aspect of this. I mentioned these things to my agent and she didn't bat an eyelash.

To try and put this in perspective. If you were sauteeing and pan frying on your stove top would you walk away and watch TV in another room while it cooked? No....you would be there with the stove to be sure things cooked the way you want, and as a precaution against fire, which is always an issue when you cook. (smoke detectors as kitchen timers anyone? <grin>)

Have you been to a Trotec or Epilog dealer to see their machines in action? Their fan systems are very reasonable. It is the bigger fans those of us with Chinese machines use that can be an issue. And you will also find a number of posts here about the different types of fans and their noise versus ability to move adequate air. I dont remember any undo noise from the air assist blower on the Epilogs either, though it has been a while since I heard one. Overall, the unit was very reasonable in terms of noise. When I saw them I saw a Zing and a Helix located in the front office of a standard office complex in an industrial park. The office was perhaps 20 ft deep and 15 wide? Both units were more than acceptable in terms of noise.

Dave

[Raphael Weil]

Good morning Raphael!

Wood moistness is certainly a factor. But unless you have some special projects in mind for green wood keep in mind you will probably be using kiln dried wood of some sort, whether it is solid wood or plywood. At the moisture levels you will find in those woods the fire risk differences are going to be relatively minor. Air flow certainly effects the severity and likelihood of a flare up. But as you work with the machines it doesn't take much time before you know how to dial in your various materials for the best results. They can still flare up though so having airflow adjusted well doesn't reduce the need to keep a wary eye on things. Wood moisture can vary from one point on your stock to another depending on your storage conditions. So as you happily burn your way through a job you might find a sudden flare up due to a change in the wood at a particular point. It could be moisture, a sap pocket, a different wood used for a plug in a ply, etc. You just have to watch that stuff.

In terms of avoiding engraving because of the fire risk. Engraving or cutting can cause it. And you just need to be prepared to be watching your laser as it runs. It is something we all have to deal with. The trick is probably to have things you can do with divided attention while the job is running, and to be comfortably seated or standing so you can see into the machine. It isnt wasted time, but it is not time you can devote to things that require close attention either.

My Chinese laser is rather tall. I use a stool height chair or just stand when I am monitoring it. And I have my laptop set up on a rolling, adjustable height cart that is right next to the laser and I can roll it anywhere I need to have a good view of the inside of the unit as it runs. That has worked well. Folks who are doing much longer running jobs than me can probably make suggestions to you as well. I would not let the fire issue put you off to the types of things you want to do. Just set yourself up so that you can be on hand and comfortable while it runs.

I cant speak to the insurance aspect of this. I mentioned these things to my agent and she didn't bat an eyelash.

To try and put this in perspective. If you were sauteeing and pan frying on your stove top would you walk away and watch TV in another room while it cooked? No....you would be there with the stove to be sure things cooked the way you want, and as a precaution against fire, which is always an issue when you cook. (smoke detectors as kitchen timers anyone? <grin>)

Have you been to a Trotec or Epilog dealer to see their machines in action? Their fan systems are very reasonable. It is the bigger fans those of us with Chinese machines use that can be an issue. And you will also find a number of posts here about the different types of fans and their noise versus ability to move adequate air. I dont remember any undo noise from the air assist blower on the Epilogs either, though it has been a while since I heard one. Overall, the unit was very reasonable in terms of noise. When I saw them I saw a Zing and a Helix located in the front office of a standard office complex in an industrial park. The office was perhaps 20 ft deep and 15 wide? Both units were more than acceptable in terms of noise.

Dave

I can't imagine how people buy a laser without reading this forum first. You laser vets are so generous with your time. I hope I can one day somehow repay the favor. Btw I probably don't watch my frying pans nearly closely enough in the kitchen

I think the most important question I have now relates to going with the Exhaut System/Airflow that Trotec and Epilog sell, or going diy. I'm prepared to make that decision solely on fire risk. Would you say that their equipment provides some of the best possible airflow and exhaust I could use? Or would going with a very high end compressor and fans accomplish a better job? What I'm not looking to do is cheap out and do something half way here. I did notice the benefit of Trotec's exhaust being that it fits neatly underneath. That smaller footprint is pretty handy.

With regards to your other comments, my jobs are going to be long, really long. On a Chinese laser they take an hour and 45 mins in raster mode. I'm hoping a Zing or Speedy could do it faster, but I don't know how much faster they are. And I'll be doing a lot of them, it's very detailed art. Frankly the only way I can do it is with a webcam looking right into the bed, and a feed going to a monitor (much like another fellow mentioned in here). I'll make sure I'm never more than 12 feet away and have numerous C02 extinguishers. I guess a super sensitive smoke detector will also be the way to go (that's going to take trial and error). But being propped up over the laser 7 hours a day is just a non-starter for me given my back. But I'm fairly creative, I can find a way to make it so that I'm in a bean bag chair with a way to see right into the bed. I want this bad enough to find a way

I'm meeting with Trotec and Epilog soon. As much as I liked the price points of FSL and AT, I don't think I can do a 500 lbs beast like that yet. I hope to have the man cave for that one day soon.

[Gary Hair]

In terms of avoiding engraving because of the fire risk. Engraving or cutting can cause it. And you just need to be prepared to be watching your laser as it runs.

Unless you have a machine malfunction it's not likely that engraving will ever cause a fire. If you are getting flareups, or anything remotely close to a flareup, while engraving then you are trying to do something that it's probably not really supposed to be doing - like hogging out wood in too few passes by bumping up the power and lowering the speed. With a little common sense you can almost be guaranteed that engraving won't start a fire. Cutting, on the other hand, is 100% at risk for a fire due to the very nature of what you are doing. There are many ways to reduce the likelihood of a fire even while cutting, but I don't think you could ever eliminate it completely. Even something as benign as cutting a single sheet of paper with low power and slow speed carries a small amount of risk, but nothing like cutting 1/4" acrylic with a low power machine.

I sit less than 5 feet away from my co2 and barely give it a glance when engraving but I almost always "hover" when cutting, if not hovering then I'm at least standing close enough to keep an eye on it the whole time it's running.

You don't have to be paranoid but you do have to use common sense and be cautious.

[Gary Hair]

I think the most important question I have now relates to going with the Exhaut System/Airflow that Trotec and Epilog sell, or going diy. I'm prepared to make that decision solely on fire risk.

The exhaust system won't have as much an effect on the fire risk as it sounds like you think it will. Enough airflow may keep flareups at bay, but air assist is much more important. I have a <$100 Harbor Freight dust collector on my lasers and it has worked fine for 9+ years. I've always had them a fair distance away, that helps reduce the noise and doesn't really seem to affect the airflow too much. Currently it's about 18' above me and blows another 4' above it to go through the roof. It's connected to my Trotec, GCC, and fiber with gates to choose which machine I'm using. I can run all three at once and as long as the two co2 aren't cutting wood then it's exhausts just fine.

Would you say that their equipment provides some of the best possible airflow and exhaust I could use? Or would going with a very high end compressor and fans accomplish a better job?

I have the Trotec air assist compressor and it seems to work fine. It's so quiet that I don't even really know when it's running - except for the blue led that lights up when it's on anyway... For my GCC co2 I ran a line from my 60gal compressor but it was 1,000% overkill. You don't want to use a cheap Harbor Freight airbrush compressor, you'll burn it out fairly quickly, but you certainly don't need anything more than a $200-$300 compressor either. Base this decision on where the compressor will stay - far enough away and you can use a fairly loud compressor and it won't bother you, closer and you should spend a bit more for something quieter.

With regards to your other comments, my jobs are going to be long, really long. On a Chinese laser they take an hour and 45 mins in raster mode. I'm hoping a Zing or Speedy could do it faster, but I don't know how much faster they are.

Any metal tube co2 will run faster than your Chinese laser and you will be blown away by a Trotec! I was very skeptical about the claims made by Trotec owners, but I can tell you that they were absolutely right! I have a job running anodized aluminum parts that used to take about 18 minutes on my GCC. That was at 600 dpi and running as fast as I could but still getting good images. On the Trotec I'm running them at 1,000 dpi and 80% speed and they take less than 5 minutes. Best of all, the quality is many times better than the GCC. Not sure exactly how Trotec does it, but I'm amazed and impressed!

Frankly the only way I can do it is with a webcam looking right into the bed, and a feed going to a monitor

I don't see this as a problem. I'm looking at my Trotec trying to figure out where to run a wire for a webcam. It's just high enough that I can't see in it while I'm sitting at my desk and a webcam would solve that little problem.

I'll make sure I'm never more than 12 feet away and have numerous C02 extinguishers. I guess a super sensitive smoke detector will also be the way to go (that's going to take trial and error).

If you are engraving then this is overkill. Be careful and cautious, but the risk is extremely low for a fire while engraving. The "super sensitive" smoke detector may be more of a hassle than it's worth. It's likely to go off when you open the cabinet and unlikely to go off soon enough if you do have a fire. If that's your notification system then you should just use it to let you know when it's time to run out of the house because it will be too late.

[Rich Harman]

The exhaust system won't have as much an effect on the fire risk as it sounds like you think it will. Enough airflow may keep flareups at bay, but air assist is much more important.

I agree. For glass tube lasers (water cooled), the purpose of the exhaust is to simply remove smoke from the cabinet. At least some metal tube lasers are air cooled, they use the exhaust for cooling. Air assist is what prevents flare ups. Other things can cause fires to, such as mechanical failure and obstructions. If you want to go the extra step to prevent fires, then stay and watch the machine.