Computerized Woodworking

[Steve Kohn]

I know little (actually very little) about computerized woodworking. However, I've long been interested in trying my hand at woodworking via computer. I consider myself to be pretty accomplished at flat work, have what I consider to be a complete shop, am retired, and have sufficient expendable funds to dabble a bit. I like to build wooden boxes and would like to step up my game and decorate/customize these boxes with either carvings or engravings. I am in no way artistic enough to complete these decorative elements by hand. I am a retired electrical engineer so I get the technology involved but I don't want to make a career out of learning a bunch of software commands and becoming an expert on come arcane computer language.

So today I got a flyer from Rockler. The are listing "The All-In-One Maker Machine". It comes complete with CNC, laser engraving, and 3D printing modules. It is the CNC Piranha FX with accessory package.

Anyone have one of these, or can comment on this approach?

[Curt Stivison]

Steve,
Check out the cnc forum on SMC for a lot of information on cnc's. I started with a Shark cnc 3 years ago and it is a good entry level machine. There is a forum devoted to sharks.
I have since upgraded to an Axiom Pro 6. Very nice machine.
Curt

[ed vitanovec]

The Piranha FX is a new model with the modules you mention. I do not know if it is available yet, video I saw on this was at next wave automation website. Owner was looking for supporters if I remember correctly. The current Piranha is a small CNC Router and is self contained, meaning you do not need to connect a computer to it. Do your design on the PC and take the G code to the Pendant for the Piranha using a USB drive. This machine might serve your purpose but you should consider what maximum size boxes you will be making to see if this machine will cut it. Another brand that will compete with the Piranha is the Auto Route 1 made by Axion Precision. The Auto Route 1 looks to be well made and just a little more but the machine is all steel and cast iron. The company is getting a shipment of these in a few weeks, will be about $2100 delivered.

I also think you will learn all about using these machine very quickly based on your background. The machines mention above have good technical support which is important. For the Piranha there is a CNC Shark forum you should check out. Keep us posted on what you end up buying.

Regards!
Ed

[Robert Engel]

Have you tried doing it by hand? I wanted to learn chip carving but really didn't think I could carve -- until I took a class and found out its not as hard as it looks.
No, I'm not a master, but being retired you have time to develop your skills with practice.

If you go computer, then when people say "Oh what beautiful work!" you know you didn't do it, but have to give the credit to a machine.

Just my 3 cents......forget the machine & take a carving class!

[dan petroski]

Steve....I was exactly in your position a couple years ago. Fairly accomplished woodworker ,metal worker, all the tools ETC. I too build boxes and furniture. it is an absolute kick to do adding the carvings for the personal touch. I built my own cnc router so I can't comment definitively on which machine to buy but I think shop bot would be a good choice because of the support. At 74 computers are not my second language either.
at this point i'll mention that this was a joint project with my best friend "Ma" married 54 yrs. she does quilting and needed patterns for her machine.
we use vectric products a lot as well as bobcad. vectric software is easy to use compared to bobcad and less expensive..... Dan

[Ted Reischl]

Have you tried doing it by hand? I wanted to learn chip carving but really didn't think I could carve -- until I took a class and found out its not as hard as it looks.
No, I'm not a master, but being retired you have time to develop your skills with practice.

If you go computer, then when people say "Oh what beautiful work!" you know you didn't do it, but have to give the credit to a machine.

Just my 3 cents......forget the machine & take a carving class!

That is an interesting viewpoint. From now on I am going to think I did not make anything if I use my tablesaw because I did not rive the piece out of log and then form it up with handplanes. Afterall, I just set the fence to a dimension, and voila! it is cut to size.

Seriously, there is a lot of work that can go into making a piece with a CNC machine. One can also take premade models and embellish pieces with very little work. And then. . . .

I like to do some handcarving. But I see no reason whatsoever to stand at my bench roughing out large areas to depth. I can do that easily with the CNC, then pick up my handtools and go to work on the detailing. A lot of carvers do the same thing with a handheld router.

Finally learned that the actual carving, cutting, whatever is not the real challenge, most anyone can eventually learn the handskills. The real challenge is the creativity, how to create the design in the first place. A few chipcarvers I know do excellent work, all of it drawn by someone like Wayne Barton, then they stand and accept the Ooooo's and Ahhhhh's without ever telling anyone all they did was trace someone else's design onto a piece of wood and follow the lines.

My 2 cents of advice is this: Get a machine, use it however you want to fit it into the things you want to do. When I make boxes I have a tablesaw jig I made to cut the sides and use a Wixey gage to set the angle perfectly. Then I use the cnc to either rough out or final cut designs on the box. I also use the CNC to cut hinge pockets.

I know, I should toss out the Wixey gage and do it the old fashioned hard headed way of making trial cut after trial cut and waste a bunch of lumber. They can have my Wixey gage when they pry it from my cold dead hands.

[Ted Reischl]

I know little (actually very little) about computerized woodworking. However, I've long been interested in trying my hand at woodworking via computer. I consider myself to be pretty accomplished at flat work, have what I consider to be a complete shop, am retired, and have sufficient expendable funds to dabble a bit. I like to build wooden boxes and would like to step up my game and decorate/customize these boxes with either carvings or engravings. I am in no way artistic enough to complete these decorative elements by hand. I am a retired electrical engineer so I get the technology involved but I don't want to make a career out of learning a bunch of software commands and becoming an expert on come arcane computer language.

So today I got a flyer from Rockler. The are listing "The All-In-One Maker Machine". It comes complete with CNC, laser engraving, and 3D printing modules. It is the CNC Piranha FX with accessory package.

Anyone have one of these, or can comment on this approach?

Steve, there is a learning curve to working with a CNC like anything else. Mostly on the software side of things. If you have worked with CAD in your career it will be a whole lot easier. If you have not worked with CAD, I would highly recommend that you start with something like Corel (no, it is not a classic CAD package like AutoCad). For doing CNC work, Corel will do any drawing you could do in AutoCad or other traditional CAD program and whole lot more on the artistic side of things, which is not very easy in traditional CAD packages. Besides, the Corel Home edition is only $129 and works great.

I am not very enamored of NextWave machines like the Piranha. Size vs cost is one reason. The inability to expand the work envelope. They are not a very rigid machine which effects cut quality and speed of cutting. And then, "All in One"? Uh huh, someone once gave me a Swiss Army knife. I have no idea where that is anymore since it proved to be sort of useful, unless I really needed to cut something.

Cruise on over to Vectric and take a look at the forum there. Lots of new people post there. The software is far from "arcane". Also consider building your own machine since there are really good kits available that will allow you to expand your machine if the need arises. That is much better than trying to figure out where to put your old one or sell it. I could recommend CNC Router Parts as a place to start.

[Steve Kohn]

Thanks to the information on this and other threads in this forum I've gathered a lot of information. But first to answer some of the questions I was asked about my experience and uses planned.
1. I have absolutely no CAD experience. I got out of the technical design work early in my career and transitioned over to management and then the business side.
2. As mentioned I'd like to use the machine to decorate boxes. Anything bigger than 18X24" is not on the agenda.
3. I have no desire to go commercial with this. One of a kind is the aim.
4. I'd like to be able to scan graphics/photo's and then use this output to carve box lids and sides.
5. I'd also like to be able to have a library of standard graphics to import.
6. I don't think I'd be creating much original artwork. I would most likely modify something that is in the public domain.

So having said all that I looked at the CNC Router Parts website. Their benchtop basic CNC machine kit seems to fit my hardware requirements petty well. I'd add the T-slot table and a router mounting kit to that order. Any reason to go with either the Bosch 1617 or the PC690? I have both routers.

I'd also probably go with one of the Vectric software packages. Based on the information I've provided above I'd like some advice. Which package would seem to work best?

[Jerome Stanek]

For what you want to do a shopbot handibot may be a good choice

[Art Mann]

Have you tried doing it by hand? I wanted to learn chip carving but really didn't think I could carve -- until I took a class and found out its not as hard as it looks.
No, I'm not a master, but being retired you have time to develop your skills with practice.

If you go computer, then when people say "Oh what beautiful work!" you know you didn't do it, but have to give the credit to a machine.

Just my 3 cents......forget the machine & take a carving class!

I carve wood using a CNC router and it looks waaay better than what I could do by hand and it is 100 times faster as well. What is important to me is the quality of the product, not a demonstration of my carving skills. My wife is a professional graphic artist and she does most of the designs I carve. That is where the artistry, skill and creativity come in.

By the way, the use of a CNC router does not eliminate the need for advanced woodworking and finishing skills.

[Mike Heidrick]

The kickstarter has not shipped its machines yet so I am guessing rockler is a bit out on their availability.

[William Adams]

If you look at the low-end / hobby machines, you may find some useful resources to at least familiarize yourself w/ the underyling concepts and terminology. For the Shapeoko wiki we did pages on:

- Overview
- Workflow
- Parts (Overview)
- Software (Overview)
- Glossary

Originally the project had a strong opensource orientation, but that's been changed somewhat by the new Shapeoko 3 having a different license. It's default 16 x 16 work area (expansion kits are being researched now) may suit your needs (24" stock could hang out the front and back).

I'd be glad of any references / links / search subjects which people think would be useful or of interest on this front.

ob. discl. I got a Shapeoko 2 for free in exchange for doing the instructions (since sold) and a Shapeoko 3 gratis.

Strongly agree about the pleasure of carving and the justifiable pride which one can feel in handwork. Really get annoyed / angry when people try to pass of CNC work as having been done by hand, and kind of saddened that sitting around whittling isn't as socially acceptable as it used to be.

[Ted Reischl]

Thanks to the information on this and other threads in this forum I've gathered a lot of information. But first to answer some of the questions I was asked about my experience and uses planned.

1. I have absolutely no CAD experience. I got out of the technical design work early in my career and transitioned over to management and then the business side.

I would highly recommend VCarve for starters. You can do any drawing within the package. It is NOT a fully featured CAD package, for instance, you are not going to create title blocks, do dimensioning, etc. But, you can draw the shapes you need. One of the really great things about Vectric software is that the video tutorials are just plain excellent. A lot of the users buy a second monitor (cheap) so they can watch the tutorials and work along them in the other screen. A great way to learn. Pause the video, do what the instructor was doing and learn. Then start the video again.

Vectric's upgrade policy is also very good. For instance, if you purchased VCarve and then decided to upgrade cause you wanted to create your own models, there is only a $100 hit for doing it that way.

BTW, there are programs out there that will create 3D models that can be imported into VCarve. Most of them are true 3D modelers and have a bit of a learning curve, sometimes very steep.

Also, if you read the Vectric site, you saw that Vectric provides a boatload of 3D models with the purchase. Over 300 3D models, and over 100 2D models.

No matter how you slice the cheese, you are going to have to get familiar with a drawing program. The essence of CNC machine work is being able to use the computer. But, Vectric also has a terrific forum with a bunch of folks willing to help you out. Typically, if you ask a question you will get an answer within a very short time, 24/7. It is easily the best forum I belong to (specific to a particular product). Take some time and browse through it.

2. As mentioned I'd like to use the machine to decorate boxes. Anything bigger than 18X24" is not on the agenda.

I took a look at the CNC router parts machine you mentioned. If you do not mind spending a few extra bucks, you should go with the Pro version of that machine. Having dual drives on the gantry axis helps prevent any racking of the gantry.

3. I have no desire to go commercial with this. One of a kind is the aim.

Understood. One thing to consider is that cutting 3D art is not very fast. On mine, I typically program the feed at about 150 IPM. On my old machine, the best I could do was 60 IPM, seemed like even small items took forever.

4. I'd like to be able to scan graphics/photo's and then use this output to carve box lids and sides.

You might look into Photo VCarve if you want to do photos. Trying to create a 3D image (like a relief carving) is not something that is easy to do, with any software that I know of.

5. I'd also like to be able to have a library of standard graphics to import.

With the 300 models you will have a good start, plus lots of other models are available from Vectric. Downloading stl models from the internet is very, very hit or miss. Most of them are true representations of the item modeled. Once those are squashed down into a relief carving thickness they loose a lot of detail.

6. I don't think I'd be creating much original artwork. I would most likely modify something that is in the public domain.

See my answer to #5 above concerning "public domain" artwork.

So having said all that I looked at the CNC Router Parts website. Their benchtop basic CNC machine kit seems to fit my hardware requirements petty well. I'd add the T-slot table and a router mounting kit to that order. Any reason to go with either the Bosch 1617 or the PC690? I have both routers.

I'd also probably go with one of the Vectric software packages. Based on the information I've provided above I'd like some advice. Which package would seem to work best?

As I mentioned above, a good place to start would be VCarve. It is one heckuva bang for the buck.

Hope this helps you out and answers some of your questions.

Either of the routers will work well for you. I use PC stuff, but that is just me. I do not think that PC routers are better than Bosch routers.

Someone posted about the ShopBot Handibot. That machine has a work envelope of about 6 X 8 X 4.

[Art Mann]

Thanks to the information on this and other threads in this forum I've gathered a lot of information. But first to answer some of the questions I was asked about my experience and uses planned.
1. I have absolutely no CAD experience. I got out of the technical design work early in my career and transitioned over to management and then the business side.
2. As mentioned I'd like to use the machine to decorate boxes. Anything bigger than 18X24" is not on the agenda.
3. I have no desire to go commercial with this. One of a kind is the aim.
4. I'd like to be able to scan graphics/photo's and then use this output to carve box lids and sides.
5. I'd also like to be able to have a library of standard graphics to import.
6. I don't think I'd be creating much original artwork. I would most likely modify something that is in the public domain.

So having said all that I looked at the CNC Router Parts website. Their benchtop basic CNC machine kit seems to fit my hardware requirements petty well. I'd add the T-slot table and a router mounting kit to that order. Any reason to go with either the Bosch 1617 or the PC690? I have both routers.

I'd also probably go with one of the Vectric software packages. Based on the information I've provided above I'd like some advice. Which package would seem to work best?

Two years ago, I was in exactly the same situation as you. I was a retired engineer looking to combine current technology with traditional design skills to enhance my woodworking projects. I started out shopping for a hobby level machine. Before it was all over, I bumped up my expectations and bought a low end commercial CNC router. I looked long and hard at the CNC Router Parts kits and had several conversations with engineers at the company. I was very impressed with their high end kits but, in the end, I just didn't want to take a month building a machine. Based on your previous posts, I think one of their newer small size kits would work great. They look a lot easier to build.

Just reading your list of goals, I think a modest CNC router will meet or exceed your expectations. I am a firm believer in Vectric software. Their user interface is really easy to learn compared to some other products and provides a full complement of powerful features. They have a new version of Vcarcve Pro out (8) that allows you to import and manipulate 3-D models from lots of different sources. Several models are included. It also provides a convenient way to import scanned 2-D graphics, turn it into vectors and create cut files. There are zillions of public domain graphic files you can also use. Vcarve Pro has some basic CAD functionality that you will find useful. It isn't great for creations of elaborate graphics but that isn't what you are interested in anyway.

As you might have guessed, my carving interests turned commercial (warning: it could happen to you too). I bought a Camaster Stinger I and have been very satisfied. My one regret is that I didn't spend more money and to get a larger and more powerful model.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Based on what you're looking at doing, adding photos and decorative engraving to smallish wood items, there is a good chance a laser engraver would be the better choice. If you said you just wanted decorative engraving, the router might be the way to go but once you say photos, the laser is the far superior machine.

I will say this, the router will absolutely be more helpful with your wood making because it will automate certain processes that you do now by hand. The laser can also be helpful as it can cut router templates but that still leaves you doing the work by hand in the end.

The real answer is to get some samples made or do some demos. I'm sure there is someone within 2 hours of you that can give you a demo for a case of beer or something like that. Seeing the process and seeing what a machine can do is an important part of the process.