Where, how & how much for hand tools

[Mike Holbrook]

It seems to me that the question of appropriate ways to find, build, refurbish or buy hand tools is a constant subject that often clouds questions that original posters are trying to pursue. Certainly this is a hot topic for this forum. It occurred to me to make a post on this topic and give everyone a chance to air their thoughts on this subject in a post dedicated to the specifics of this issue so that maybe we can reduce how often this type discussion ends up clouding other topics.

Hand tools vs machines
I have been a poster on these forums for quite a while. I started out posting on the General Forums. Like many posters on the Neander site I became enamored of the quieter more physical hand tools. Even more, I was tired of having so many posts answered by what machine I needed to buy to do the work for me. Like many posters here I wanted a less expensive way to do things "hands on". I constantly experiment with refurbishing old tools, making tools and purchasing new tools. I personally enjoy all the ways to acquire hand tools. I will also admit to having an affection for and attraction to tool design and function. I may, and often do, buy a tool not just because I need it but because I want to experiment with how well it works for specific work vs other hand tools.

Personal discalimers
I constantly experiment with hand tools in an attempt to eliminate any reliance I may have on machines or electricity. I am not a totally hand tool woodworker, as much as I might prefer to be. I do a good amount of construction work and landscaping that I feel can not be done in a timely fashion without some sort of machine. I have very nice Scythes, which for me have just about eliminated any need I have for weed eaters, but those hand tools are not likely to replace my Zero turn mower for mowing 6-8 acres of grass and weeds. I use a track saw for construction work on a regular basis because I often have large quantities of sheet goods to process and lots of lumber to cut to length. I eliminated my table saw years ago and I am in the process of eliminating my electric compound miter saw. I mention these, slightly off topic tools as some of the tools I use for landscaping and construction also get used for woodworking. The point here is sometimes people "need" tools for work that is not strictly speaking woodworking that once purchased may do double duty. I maintain buildings and 12 acres of property with a large array of tools, all of which have to be maintained, sharpened...These "other" tools may skew my particular tool collection vs the average woodworker so I am just mentioning this up front. I think it is wise of each individual poster to realize that we all have our own individual, unique environment that we work in which will certainly skew our tool collection.

Tolerance
I do think there is a risk of taking our hand tool obsession to the other extreme. I am talking about the extreme where each tool has to be refurbished from something found at a flea market or made by hand by the woodworker him/herself. I understand this urge and have particular attachments to those tools I have personally restored or built myself. However, there are quite a few instances where these ways to acquire tools may not serve. I work or attend organized functions just about every Saturday and Sunday I find it very hard to get to flea markets. There are many people who have health or work restraints that may not allow the time required to find flea markets and search them for tools. There are some people who may have more spare cash than spare time and for those people buying items new or buying items someone else has refurbished or built is a logical solution. Although there is a valid worry about scaring new woodworkers with complicated expensive tools that they fear they can not afford. There is also a valid point to be made that a new person attempting to do work with improperly designed or dull tools may become equally discouraged. Sometimes a job has to be done by a specific time or a woodworker attending a class finds a tool on the tool list they do not have time to make or search for before class time...

Objective
I am not making this post to challenge anyones methods for acquiring tools or anyones tool collection, quite the opposite. I applaud everyone who uses hand tools no matter how they acquire them, especially those who find the time and energy to refurbish old tools or build their own tools. I hope this post can serve as a place to consolidate thoughts on this subject. Maybe this thread can serve as a place to send new people who are wondering how, where and how much to spend for tools. I hope we can discuss this topic in a judicious manner that will give everyone a chance to express their opinions in a way that will benefit everyone.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Mike, I started out wanting to use only hand tools. My rational was that if I went the power route, I'd have to get a table saw, get a dust collection system and an air filtration device. There's a few grand just to start cutting wood. I compromised and got a router ( a very nice Makita btw, which I still have). Without power tools, I built my workbench out of Borg pine. It still functions today. Later I took a hand tool class. Hello eBay. Tools came and went. I acquired a contractor style TS. Then a BS. Then I replaced the old TS with a Unisaw.

Suffice it to say, I've almost come full circle, and while I still have the BS & TS (ok, and a Drill Press), I use and get more pleasure out of my hand tools. It's a journey.

[Jim Koepke]

I hope this post can serve as a place to consolidate thoughts on this subject. Maybe this thread can serve as a place to send new people who are wondering how, where and how much to spend for tools. I hope we can discuss this topic in a judicious manner that will give everyone a chance to express their opinions in a way that will benefit everyone.

This could be a very ambitious project.

My start with hand tools was mostly due to lack of space and working the late shift didn't allow for all the noise.

A Big Problem

Recently there have been a few posts turned threads not so much on, "how, where and how much to spend for tools," but instead, "how much can I get for a tool and were to sell it."

The former usually comes from someone relatively new to the hunt. The latter is often someone doing a fly by looking for buyers or for someone else to do the homework on a recent lucky find.

Much enjoyment can be derived from helping the "new hunter."

Most often the fly by charmer is ignored. Not much pleasure is derived from doing someone else's homework.

Back To Earthly Ventures

Finding the time to visit every possible old tool treasure hiding place is a challenge. ebay isn't what it used to be. It is still a good place to view completed sales for price information. In our area folks seem to start garage/yard sales on Fridays. I guess they catch a few people on the way home from work or shopping. My brother likes to show up late on the last day. He is looking for items to resell, that is part of how he makes his living. In my experience, looking for tools the best time is to show up for the opening. There are a lot of people looking for tools.

Often when we go into town, we like to take at least a few minutes to look in on a second hand store or antique shop. There are a few antique malls with stalls that have rapid turn over. When these are stalls with tools, it is hard to get me to drive by without spending a few minutes to check if anything different has shown up. It is also difficult to pass on a tool at a good price. One needs to be careful or it can come to pass of having a dozen four fold rulers and no money to buy something that needs to be measured.

I almost always talk to the folks at the counter. This has paid off rather well. Most recently with the acquisition of a bunch of carving tools and a load of molding planes. Talk is cheap, but it can pay off rather well.

Be Aware and Beware

Some times you will end up with a dud. This is where self education can help. Reading and rereading Patrick Leach's Blood & Gore is how a lot of my knowledge was acquired. There are a many other sites with similar troves of educational material.

Some of my favorite "educational reading material" is Patrick Leach's monthly tool list. His prices may be full retail, but his tools are usually of good quality and he stands by what he sells.

This is where the arguments of philosophy enter the picture.

My question: does one have more time or more money.

A person with little time may not want to take the time to learn the skills needed to restore an old tool. If they have the money, then buying refurbished tools from other members here on SMC or other forums may be the best route.

If like me there was more time available than money burning holes in my pocketses, then learning a few tricks of the metal working trades allowed me to have a much wider variety of hand tools than if they were all purchased in go to work condition. Besides, one is going to have to learn to sharpen tools if they want to use them. Also the disassembly and reassembly of many tools has given me a better understanding of how they work and the knowledge of what to do if the tool isn't working properly.

Occasionally there is the chance of turning the rusty dud into a brilliant diamond.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

I hear you Maurice. I have just never liked using a table saw. I have a regular need for a track saw and find it to be the more versatile tool for the work I do. Once I made that decision I found it directing me more towards "hand" power tools which work better for me on construction type jobs I do regularly. This for me is a whole third type of tool that although it may be electric is also mobile and portable. I like the fact that there is a whole range of hand power tools that can connect to a simpler vacuum system. For me a Festool table can be a bench, miter saw, router table...I am working on an extension/ adjustable height/ work bench that will work with the Festool "hand tools" or actual hand tools. Although I do not want another stationary tool I am wondering if I should buy a lathe for making chair legs... I could make a spring pole lathe but it might take up more space and time I would rather invest in other projects. Some times I find myself thinking about buying a machine to do construction jobs so I will have more time to do hand tool work. It can get a little weird.

Jim, I was not thinking about appealing to the fly bys, but you make a good point, maybe we can direct them to this post instead of trying to answer the same questions time and again. I only have a passing acquaintance with Patrick Leech's tools. I did check his site out relatively recently and just got lost in the depth of it. I did not realize he had written educational work. Maybe you could give us a link to it as it is to educational information? I would be very interested in reading it.

I run a dog training/boarding/day care business which means I have extra time but I do not get too many opportunities to leave the property. If I do I have to pay someone else who is capable of managing a large group of big dogs running around off leash. We let dogs out at around 10PM every night too. I end up kinda "on call" for long hours. The positive side of my work is it leaves me time to post and shop ebay. Like you say though ebay isn't what it use to be.

[Maurice Ungaro]

It can get a little weird.

Ain't that the truth?

[Brian Holcombe]

I feel as though I have learned significantly more about woodworking by switching to hand tools and progressing with them. The quality of my work has improved significantly without much a space investment and I feel increasingly capable.

[Mike Holbrook]

Tool Safety
Another consideration regarding tool selection that I think deserves discussion is tool safety. I train large working dogs and have for many years, even when I was employed in the computer industry. Most of the people who do what I do have major scars somewhere on their body because they crossed the wrong dog. I don't. The reason I don't is I do not take chances. For me a 1% chance of getting bitten means I will get bitten several times each month. So I have this extra cautious mind set that kind of rolls over into my tool collection. If there is some tool or jig that will decrease my chance of damaging myself I am all over it. My personal history has made me particularly cautious of breathing "polluted" air or contaminating my skin with suspect substances. I also frequently have around 6 dogs running loose in the house and 2-3 more in a room adjacent to my shop. Those guys may nock over liquids, trip over/yank wires or be sensitive to dust. Machines tend to make lots of air borne particles and can make large dents in peoples/other animals bodies. My shop is surrounded by concrete and is mostly under ground, not leaving me much of a way to run polluted air outside. This is a major reason I try to use more hand tools, to the point of even avoiding sanding.

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree with that, two machines I have no interest in operating are the jointer and the table saw. The joke at one of the shops local to me was that you could tell the difference between a furniture designer and a furniture maker by counting his fingers. I never wanted to be part of that, so I tend toward traditional method because it removes that sort of unnecessary risk from my hobby.

The only risk I endure currently is that I will have to take an extra long break for espresso after a morning of swinging a hammer. A romantic life rather than one of buzzing machinery.

[ken hatch]

I admit to being a tool collector with a woodworking problem. The tool collection has finally overwhelmed my small shop and I have started shedding tools. The WoodRat and a bunch of routers went a week or so ago. I will be keeping only one to no more than three of the basic tools needed to make furniture i.e. a couple of #3s and 4s, maybe 3 #5s and so on. If I haven't used a tool the the last year I expect it will be history unless it has a great story to tell. Of the power tools I can see selling the table saw and the Jointer, keeping only the Bandsaw, 20" planer, and dust collection unit.

BTW, tools can be a sickness. I have some mortice chisels on the way, do I need 'em....ain't no way, I have a set of Iles pig stickers, a set of good Japanese mortice chisels, and a set of Sorby slash mortice chisels. Same story on bench chisels and paring chisels. I expect most will go with the exception of my Japanese bench and paring chisels. Even more ridiculous are marking gauges. I haven't counted my marking gauges but I'll bet there are 50 or more. I can make a good argument for maybe 1/2 dozen to a dozen marking gauges but not for 50. Saws, let me tell you about saws. I expect there are close to 100 saws in all states of repair stuck in various places around the shop. Why?

If anyone with a tool jones is interested I will soon be posting tools on my blog (do a google on I'm a OK Guy) a couple of days before they are posted on eBay.

Sorry for the rant but what the hey, when you think about it it is embarrassing to have so many tools. One guy, two hands can only use a limited number of tools at any time. More than a few examples of any one tool is more than is needed to work wood and are a PITA to store and keep up.

ken

[James Pallas]

There are many places to find tools, e bay, garage sales, flea markets, relatives, neighbors, here at SMC. It just knowing what something is worth that is a problem. What tool to buy is another issue. The good advice I have seen is to pick something to build then ask here. You will get both ends of the spectrum but it will help. You don't need a two hundred dollar back saw to make a kids step stool but you may get that as advice. I am lucky to have good tools some new some old but they all work well for me. If you are new to this try to find someone to mentor you in person. Most woodworkers are more than willing to share information.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

If you are new to this try to find someone to mentor you in person. Most woodworkers are more than willing to share information.

Good advice Jim. For a few years my woodworking was fun, but still suffered from not having any practical experience or someone to turn to when I had a question. Back then the internet was just getting its second page.

The biggest learning hill to climb is about sharpness. Many paths to the same result.

Now days my blades are pretty darn sharp. Yes, it is clear there are more degrees of sharpness to be achieved. Though for me the sharpness that can be achieved on an 8000 stone followed by stropping is good enough for woodworking. Perhaps if shaving with a straight razor were on my list, then a finer stone would be in order.

jtk

[Reinis Kanders]

I like the craft aspect of the hand-tools whereas with machine tools one is more of an operator, plus all the silly jigs and setups, e.g. router sleds, etc. for one time operations.
It is slower, but for hobbyist spending on hand tools is more fun than spending on air ducts and cyclones, etc.

[Kees Heiden]

I have and use a small combination planer/thicknesser and a contractors table saw. Usefull, but powertools are so BORING!

Handtools are fun and the history associated with them is tremendously interesting. I try to keep the number of tools in my shop to a reasonable amount. And allthough I indeed see the value of buying new handtools, that again is BORING!

[James Pallas]

At the risk of backlash here I go. For those of us that work all hand tool or a mixture of hand and power we are working with historical tools. This is the era of plug and play. The manual ability to operate hand tools is not taught anymore. Writing with pen or pencil is not being taught in school anymore. A lot of those wanting to work with hand tools have a totally different skil set. I don't mean this to be a bad thing, just different. Many have not sharpened a pocket knife much less a plane iron. We see questions all the time about burrs, flat backs and polish on blades. The task of refurbishing a good hand tool is not easy if the basics are not known. I would like to think that I am pretty good with planes and chisels but I'm not good with an axe or an adz. There are lots of people that want to learn these skills but need hands on help to judge a good tool from a bad one and how the tool really works and how to prepare it to do so. I hope that those that know some about the subject are willing to help and have the patients to do so.
Jim

[Mike Holbrook]

I like Brian's point about hand tool work providing a more complete education in working wood. I also find this to be the case. My current fascination with working green wood is in part due to how it educates my hand and eye to how pieces of wood and wood grain work and respond to various tools. The hand tool requires us to push it through each stroke, slowing the process down enough so that what is happening is not lost in a rapidly turning blade that powers it's way through everything with far less regard for the various textures/densities/grains in the wood. Sometimes the slower step by step approach produces a better result faster too. Constantly having to clean up/sand where a machine tore something instead of cutting it clean can draw out the whole process of machining a surface. I also appreciate the greater number of curves and rounded shapes that are typical of green & hand woodworking. Not only are hand tools more artistic in and of themselves but I feel they allow a whole new level of artistic expression.

I suspect that many peoples fascination with old and hand made tools has to do with the personal feel and familiarity that one acquires by personally making/refurbishing their own tools. Milling wood with a machine just does not provide that level of feed back. Old familiar or hand made hand tools can blur the separation between the woodworker and his tools. Certainly we see new tool manufacturers attempting to allow their customers to pick and choose from an increasing number of modifiable features providing them with a more customized tool.

James posted what I think is a very good point while I was making this post. James' point is sort of the other side of the point/double edged sword Brian mentions. The guy who started me in woodworking still tries to get me to buy more machines. He complains that he just does not have good enough hand eye coordination to use hand tools, as James mentions there are real skills one needs to learn to be able to utilize hand tools properly. Sharpening the many shapes and bevels in the blades we use can become an ongoing obsession that we never master but struggle to achieve enough familiarity of to maintain our various cutting surfaces in a serviceable form. I believe many posters here will agree that learning to use some collection of sharpening devices is A if not THE key to hand tool woodworking. We might have a little harder time reaching a consensus on exactly what devices are needed and how much those devices "should" cost. It is interesting to me how many on this forum have gone full circle on this topic ending up preferring: old oil stones, less complicated/less dishing/harder ceramic stones, regular old electric or hand turned grinders with a variety of types of wheels....certainly there are many tools and methods for "skinning this cat" and sometimes simpler proves "better".