Just venting...

[Victor Robinson]

I love working on my house. And I actually enjoy remodeling projects.

But I hate, hate dealing with subcontractors. Every time I do I hate it even more.

I think it's worse when you've educated yourself about the particular trade and task at hand. I've found the majority of these guys [in my area] cut corners and are ethically dubious. Plenty of lies about what's safe and what's not, extremely high marked up material costs, refusal to do work that doesn't feel like it's worth their time but should be part of the job/bid, etc. Hey, I get running a business. I'm not an unreasonable guy. I'm just looking for honesty, integrity, and just a little bit of value to make me feel ok about parting with hard-earned money. That's asking for too much right?

Add to that an extremely corrupt building department and you can't trust anyone except yourself to make sure things are safe and to code for your family.

I think part of the issue is location. I'd describe the vast majority of subs that do residential work here to be "fast and loose," and they prey on homeowners that have zero know-how and flush pockets. They are not starving for work AT ALL but the quality of their work is not very good. And the guys that are really good end up doing mostly commercial work and have sky-high residential prices - they'll take your job if you make it worth their while. Example bid $6k for an extremely basic $2k plumbing rough-in. Over the last 10 years, I've dealt with highly recommended and reviewed "top-rated" electricians, HVAC, and plumbers in the area. I've found ONE plumber I'd call back for a future job and zero electricians. On every major job I've ended up being more informed about the code than the person I hired. On every major job I've ended up catching the guy in some kind of switcheroo or lie that affects the overall quality of the job or the safety of it. And I'm not hiring unlicensed people off Craigslist or anything - we're talking some of the most well-known businesses in the area.

Last 5-star electrician I called in to bid a job? High on meth during the bid.

Last plumbing rough-in? Inspector showed up drunk, passed the work because he knew the plumber, didn't catch the code violations we knew were there. Then I had to ask them to fix the stuff that wasn't to code and that the inspector didn't bother to catch.

My highly reviewed HVAC guy who's on the job at the moment? Caught him trying to install a single-stage furnace when the agreed upon model is a dual-stage. Guess he thought the model numbers would look similar enough and dummy homeowner wouldn't know any better or check. Could have been an honest mistake but I doubt that given how he has been on the rest of the job. Uh, and what's with the attitude like you're doing me a favor after I caught the "mistake?" Did you not bid the job and did I not agree to your price?

Protecting the home while they work on it? Forget about it.

But when I've dealt with subs in the suburbs at other properties, they are much better. There's actually a decent shot at getting someone who at least seems to be a stand-up person. Fair price, honesty, good advice, and gasp, even a PLEASANT experience. There seems to be a more balanced mix of good folks and shady ones.

I'm just venting after this frustrating HVAC experience. It boggles my mind how I can hand over so much cash to someone and still have a frustrating experience, and have that be the norm rather than the exception. I know there are lots of guys in the various trades on this forum and this isn't directed at you, as my experiences seem to be related to the deterioration of the trades within my particular city. I'm just at a loss for how hard it has gotten to find good people around here. And my wife wonders where I get an endless energy to educate myself on DIY projects that only a crazy person would DIY. It isn't even about saving money anymore like it used to be when we were younger and cash-strapped.

[Larry Frank]

When I have had work done, I make certain the contract is very specific. I watch everything and photo everything. I also insist on a hold back. Lastly, I take the time to check references carefully. And, I am not real nice about mistakes and stop the job when an issue comes up.
.

[Brian Elfert]

The guy who remodeled my house did a pretty darn good job. The only thing I have trouble with is the cheap exterior doors he used. If had told me what he planned to use I would have paid the $300 or $400 more for better doors. All of the other materials he used were top notch.

He is residing my garage next week. He doesn't even want any money up front.

[Shawn Pixley]

I hear you. I do most of my own work because I know it will be better than most of which I can hire.

[Chris Padilla]

I know a good, reputable guy if you need tile work done, Victor.

I have a good landscape guy, too, but I gotta say, all the trades seems to lack communication skills and are the worse about not showing up when they say they will.

Even my landscaper who I love said he'll be back Monday...didn't show...Tuesday...didn't show and I finally text him and then he show Wed and is supposed to show today (we'll see when I get home). He does great work at a good price but man...sometimes....

[Greg R Bradley]

Just get off your rear and do it yourself. You are not going to find anyone worth paying to do anything in California. Worthless trash or shockingly expensive, take your pick.

[Brian Elfert]

Kinda hard to do it yourself if you don't have the knowledge or skills to do the work. I rented a small Bobcat once to grade my yard. I had never used one in my life and I couldn't get the ground flat to save my life. A hydraulic hose burst about an hour into it. (Burst hose not my fault.) I took it back to the rental place and they only charged me a small portion of the original cost since I got some work out of it.

I ended up hiring a guy with a Bobcat to do the work because he could actually get the ground flat and level.

[Mark Blatter]

I know a good, reputable guy if you need tile work done, Victor.

I have a good landscape guy, too, but I gotta say, all the trades seems to lack communication skills and are the worse about not showing up when they say they will.

Even my landscaper who I love said he'll be back Monday...didn't show...Tuesday...didn't show and I finally text him and then he show Wed and is supposed to show today (we'll see when I get home). He does great work at a good price but man...sometimes....

I had a great electrician in Montana, but like your landscaper, could not always be relied upon to show up when he said he would. He would commit to being there at 8 on Monday and it would take me to Wed to track him down. Come to find out he had been on the slopes snowboarding. I came to realize that if it snowed, he simply would not show up as promised. It was worth it putting up with him because he was just so good.

[Julie Moriarty]

I worked in the trades for 34 years and, while I hate to admit it, there were a lot of hacks. One guy who worked for me couldn't even tell if something looked out of level. And he didn't think to use one when running pipe.

I arrived on a job once, the first journeyman on the job, and the foreman had installed (6) 1-1/4" conduits, coming out of a switchgear, with manufactured 90⁰ elbows on the end of each, supposedly to run them along the bottom of the ceiling bar joists. All were at a different height. All he had to do was cut the straight pipes the same length, but he couldn't figure that out. I gently asked him if I could start the runs from scratch. There was no way I was going to continue what he started.

I have a hundred more of those stories.

Some people get into the trades because they think they can make good money or it's something their father did, but many don't have the mechanical aptitude required to do their job well. But it's like that in every profession.

[Victor Robinson]

I know a good, reputable guy if you need tile work done, Victor.

I have a good landscape guy, too, but I gotta say, all the trades seems to lack communication skills and are the worse about not showing up when they say they will.

Even my landscaper who I love said he'll be back Monday...didn't show...Tuesday...didn't show and I finally text him and then he show Wed and is supposed to show today (we'll see when I get home). He does great work at a good price but man...sometimes....

Too bad tile work is something I'm reasonably comfortable and confident with!

Yeah the flakiness can definitely be an issue, and I've found that more true with the landscapers than anyone else. Otherwise communication and timeliness has been pretty good around here in my experience. The thing is, in the city, with such a high concentration of younger people who live on their smartphones (and hence Yelp and other review sites), if you can't communicate well or show up on time (basically if you don't have your stuff together), you'll be toast. I think that has led to the "clever" folks thriving - yes, they are good on email and show up when they say they will, which seems enough to earn them glowing reviews.

Unfortunately, if you are able to actually evaluate the work even slightly...

[Victor Robinson]

Just get off your rear and do it yourself. You are not going to find anyone worth paying to do anything in California. Worthless trash or shockingly expensive, take your pick.

I think this is what I'm saying, lol, and I generally do. There are just some things that are too much (or too dangerous) to try to figure out. Case in point - my furnace system replacement. New ducts, the whole works. Now most of HVAC work isn't particularly complicated from what I can tell - my guy didn't do the specialized calculations or testing that I know HVAC techs elsewhere do. Here they can get away with it because of our ridiculously moderate climate and poorly insulated homes.

I've noticed the information needed to DIY HVAC properly is much harder to find than other types of work. That's probably a good thing as there are lots of ways to do major damage to oneself, loved ones, and property with HVAC, but I think the flip side is the "professionals" in the field can more easily swindle. I would bet money HVAC fraud has the highest rate amongst all types of contractor fraud.

[Victor Robinson]

Kinda hard to do it yourself if you don't have the knowledge or skills to do the work. I rented a small Bobcat once to grade my yard. I had never used one in my life and I couldn't get the ground flat to save my life. A hydraulic hose burst about an hour into it. (Burst hose not my fault.) I took it back to the rental place and they only charged me a small portion of the original cost since I got some work out of it.

I ended up hiring a guy with a Bobcat to do the work because he could actually get the ground flat and level.

Yeah, I hear ya. My backyard (steep hill) needs to be regraded with proper retaining walls (though each individual wall would still be below the height requiring engineering). I mean I can shovel dirt, but as a whole it's a job that's very much beyond my capabilities, both mentally and physically. And if I even tried to drive a Bobcat there, I'd end up just rolling it down the hill into the house!

[Victor Robinson]

I worked in the trades for 34 years and, while I hate to admit it, there were a lot of hacks. One guy who worked for me couldn't even tell if something looked out of level. And he didn't think to use one when running pipe.

I arrived on a job once, the first journeyman on the job, and the foreman had installed (6) 1-1/4" conduits, coming out of a switchgear, with manufactured 90⁰ elbows on the end of each, supposedly to run them along the bottom of the ceiling bar joists. All were at a different height. All he had to do was cut the straight pipes the same length, but he couldn't figure that out. I gently asked him if I could start the runs from scratch. There was no way I was going to continue what he started.

I have a hundred more of those stories.

Some people get into the trades because they think they can make good money or it's something their father did, but many don't have the mechanical aptitude required to do their job well. But it's like that in every profession.

There's also very little incentive to do a quality job when you've got jobs lined up out the wazoo. I mean that's great, I'm glad things are going well for these guys. But where's the pride for a crisp, clean, job?

And I imagine it's frustrating for the good tradespeople too, because they should be able to look around and say, hey, my integrity, customer service, attention to detail, etc. has me doing a heck of a lot better than these hacks. But around here, I'm not sure that is true. Plenty of work for everyone, including the hacks. Every guy is booked just as solid as the next and they are all making a ton of money.

And I feel there are really very few "masters" of the trade out there that the average homeowner gets to interact with. You know, people who love teaching (even a curious homeowner), stay up to date on their field, etc. I see lots of them on various internet forums and they are a wonderful source of information, but man, I'd love to actually work with such a unicorn one day!

[Victor Robinson]

On a positive note, I've got an electrician coming out next week to do some work. He's NOT from the city.

I can't explain to you what a difference he was compared to the 6 electricians that bid before him. I gave him the job on the spot and told him I was hiring him simply because of the way he talked to me (it didn't hurt that his price was fair and evaluation of the work was much more correct, and when he didn't know something off the top of his head, just said he'd have to check the tables). I was so overjoyed with him I was almost in tears. Seriously. Because he wasn't OBVIOUSLY shady and appeared to actually want to help me. These are apparently the levels to which my standards for falling in love with a tradesperson have dropped.

But he ain't from the city.

[Robert Engel]

Wow, sounds like you've really had some bad luck there.
We've all been through it, one degree or another I guess, mostly because a)we take pride in what we do and expect others in a trade to do the same, and b)we have more general knowledge than the public and know when we are being worked.

I remember one of the best carpenters I've ever had work for me was a life long alcoholic living down the street with his mother. The guy was in his 50's permanently had drivers license revoked. I used to go pick him up. After working a couple jobs for me over the course of 4 or 5 months, one day he asked for $50 in between paydays. I advanced him the money that was the last I saw of him. He went to another town 60 miles away and was working in a bar, of all places.

My brother used to build high end homes and got tied in with a contractor who knew who all the best subs were around. That's a good way to find them, but like my brother found out, you'll have to pay.