Water Based Finishes

[Ben Abate]

Hello everyone,

I built a few new cabinets a while back and thought I would like to change the material type that I use. I previously used a friends cabinet shop when finishing. Without wearing out my welcome I decided to finish in my shop. We all know how finishing in a shop that is connected or under a home turns out. I decided to change to water based products. Jeff Jewitt recommeded a few, I believe I used the Fuhr 9100 and the Target PSL. With both products I experienced a lot of orange peel.

Now when I was spraying at the cabinet shop I would use a Kremlin gun, which was connected to a pressure pot. I used M.L. Campbell products both pre cat. and post cat. lacquers. I will admit I have limited time behind a spray gun but, I was getting rather good results. Plus with lacquer you can fix a lot of your mistakes.

I own an AccuSpray model 19 spray gun with a 2 quart pot that hangs off your belt. I have a number of air caps and needles. Could you fellows give me a bit of detail as to how I should be setting up my gun. Air settings and air caps, needles, pressure that I should be spraying at. I have not finished this set of cabinets because I am confused as to what will happen with the next layers of product. I sure would like to get them out of my shop.

Here is another question for you, when you recieve your water based products, do you find that you need to thin them very much? And do you use water or do you use one of the reducers that I believe I have read about. Also, in one of the other posts I belive the gentlemen spoke of a viscosity cup, is there a difference between oil based and water based when reading the thickness. I don't have one but would get one if it will help me understand water based products.

Thank you
Ben

[Michael Gabbay]

Ben - I'm new to spraying so I might not be much help. I worked with Jeff to get my setup - Asturo BBS HVLP conversion gun. I sprayed a vanity with Target USL and Fuhr 9550 primer. For the Fuhr 9550 I had to thin it, out of the can it was well over 100 seconds on a Ford #4 cup. It should have been around 45 - 60 seconds. I thinned it to about 45 seconds with water. I sprayed it with a 1.9mm tip and it went on beautifully. The USL satin clear was sprayed with 1.5mm tip and the USL semi gloss white was sprayed with a 1.5 mm tip.

I found that I had to adjust the gun with each product but once it was set I sprayed with no real issues.

The viscosity cup can be used for both water based and oil based products. I basically measures how thick/thin the product is and will then help you to understand the size tip. FWW has an article that Jeff wrote with a little chart to help determine the tip size based on the viscosity.

You might try adjusting the flow rate to reduce the flow. I'd probably give Jeff a call. He was a huge help for me. He has viscosity cups and can probably send you the chart or tell you what the recommended tip sizes would be. He actually like to help his customers with these types of issues based on the conversations I've had with him.
Mike

[Jim Becker]

I spray Target USL (formerly PSL) and Fuhr 9100 right out of the can other than straining with my Wagner gun with no orange peel issues. The only issue I've had was when I stupidly sprayed without moisture filtration and that didn't make for a pretty finish with the USL.

[Bill Neely]

The Fuhr 355 (clear acrylic varnish) sprays nicely right out of the can (strained) with a gravity gun and 1.9 fluid tip, it would take a smaller tip for that product with a pressure feed system. I've got a Devilbiss gun and I called their customer service line and gave the fellow the viscosity of the product and the gun number - he gave me the various setting for both pressure feed and gravity. Your gun should have a working pressure listed for it, Jeff Jewitt has a table for viscosity/tip combos on his website. You could probably work from there. I also am given to understand you shouldn't need to thin waterbourne finishes over 10%.

[Ben Abate]

Thank you for your replies, I will again call Jeff and talk to him. I have not been on his site for awhile. One thing that I would like to ask is, what pressure do you fellows set your compressor at and since I have a conversion gun what pressure do you set the gun at. This maybe a large part of my problem.

Thank you again

Ben

[Jim Becker]

Ben, for my Wagner gun, I run about 40-50 psi on the line and have the gun regulator set to about 18 psi most of the time.

[Ben Abate]

Jim,

I have always heard of the viscosity cups, but never gave them any attention. How do you use one? and what is the starting point. Do you dip it in the material and see how long it takes to drain?

[Jim Becker]

I have always heard of the viscosity cups, but never gave them any attention. How do you use one? and what is the starting point. Do you dip it in the material and see how long it takes to drain?

I will have to defer to someone who has used one, but your description sounds logical to me!

[Michael Gabbay]

Ben - To use the viscosity cup, you dunk the cup into the material so that the cup is completely submerged. Then having a watch with a second hand ready to time the material, you lift the cup out of the material about 6". As soon as the top of the cup breaks the surface of the material you started timing. As soon as the material stops coming through the cup's hole as a single stream and starts to drip you stop. That is the viscosity of the material based on the specific cup that you are using. There are conversion charts on Jeff's site for the various types of cups.

As for conversion gun pressure, I set my gun's regulator for about 15 - 20#. The less pressure you can do is considered better. The compressor is generally set to 100#. Again Jef is a great help for getting these things set up. Just tell him what components you have. If you bought them from him then he should be able to send you instructions. Also his new book has great instructions.

Hope this helps.

Mike

[Ben Abate]

Michael,

I called Jeff yesterday and he explained the cup just as you did. I was wondering about his new book whether or not I should purchase it. I have his older book and find it to be pretty good but not enough depth on spraying. I've always been one of those guys that love to build but are scared of finishes. That is why I hesitate about anything but nitrocellulous lacquers. I also believe I had a bit of mix up with tips and nozzles, using them improperly. I ordered a cup from him and he suggested for me to try Fuhr 375 so I purchased that also.

I really appreciate your efforts to help me out. I am always willing to here any more of your comments.

Thank you
Ben

[Michael Gabbay]

Ben - I don't have his first book but I have the book by Flexner and a spray book by Charron. I like Jeff's book the best. It covers all types of finishes and application methods. The only issue I have with the book is the information on spraying is throughout the book so you really need to read it. I'm not as experienced with finishing as the others on the forum but I am trying to stick to what works for me.


Mike

[Julia Li]

Hello , everbody bere, this is Julia from China-supplier of water base wood coating . I have questions for the product, it is said that Polyacrylic Acid water-base wood coating is good for use ? and how is the market in your area , thank you very much!
Hope to have more communication with every experts here

[Julia Li]

hello , I forgot it : MSN : liyan19790613@hotmail.com
SKYPE: juliali6605

Hope to be friend with you