Mortise thoughts

[Patrick Walsh]

So i am soon to start the construction of thee solid teak passage doors. Or exterior passage doors, whatever.

Well in a couple months time that is. If you noticed my other thread you know i just purchase a couple rather nice and expensive machines. Point is $$$$ is a bit tight now. Well not tight but i cant spend another 10k anytime soon.

I would like to buy the Felder FD250 slot mortiser or rather the Martin offering. But like i said $$$$$ !

Do you all think the 2.75 some odd inches the Festool Domino can mortise is deep enough for a 4.75" style?

Ideally the tenon is 2/3 the depth of the style but that extra half inch will cost me roughly $3500 extra dollars at the moment. Im not a corner cutter and i want these doors to last.

thoughts?

[David Hawxhurst]

yes i think the domino 12x140 or 14x140 would work just fine. you will need to 2-3 per joint (or more if you fit them). there are a few pro shops that are using the domino for doors. you can search youtube and find a few examples.

[Patrick Walsh]

Im considering just cutting my own tenon into the rails...

Thought, or second thought will the domino make a wide enough mortice for a 4.75 style without making two mortices thus two tenons?

[David Hawxhurst]

there are many ways to skin this cat. just based on what tooling you have access to. you could easily use the domino to make a wide mortice as you suggested. but if you have a domino why not just use dominos for the joint?
several methods come to mind based on the tooling i have. simplest fasted would be the domino, a hybrid method using a router and/or chisels. also many ways to make tenons. ie. shaper, bandsaw, router, table saw, handsaw...

[Patrick Walsh]

Of course there is more than one way to skin a cat.

For these doors though, 2" thick solid teak that will cost me a small fortune in just lumber i want to assure i do my due diligence to assure that no corner was cut in the construction of them in hopes i never ever see them fall apart.

I also want to consider ease of construction and the quality of the finished product. I am also thinking i have many more project on the books requiring a mortice and tenon joint and figure just buy the right machine the first time that accounts for my above stated concerns. Both ease of construction and quality of finished product.

If people really think 2.75" is a deep enough mortice for a 4.75" style than the domino it is. Ill buy the slot mortiser when i can come up for air from my recent Felder purchases.

I can also use a number of other things for my shop as i really just started building it this year. Smaller stuff than big machines but stuff none the less.

there are many ways to skin this cat. just based on what tooling you have access to. you could easily use the domino to make a wide mortice as you suggested. but if you have a domino why not just use dominos for the joint?
several methods come to mind based on the tooling i have. simplest fasted would be the domino, a hybrid method using a router and/or chisels. also many ways to make tenons. ie. shaper, bandsaw, router, table saw, handsaw...

[Lee Schierer]

My 2 cents worth. If you have the ability to cut conventional mortises and tenons, then I would go the tried and true method that has been successful for years instead of using something you are unsure about.

Bear in mind that teak is a very hard wood so hand cutting may be difficult. Also, Teak is an oily wood, be sure to clean your glue surfaces with a cleaning solvent like lacquer thinner before applying your glue.

[Prashun Patel]

I own the larger Domino. I will tell you this: it will change the way you think of M&T. I now only cut them manually for aesthetic (thru-tenons) or emotional reasons.

But for speed and quality, it's very hard to beat.

You mentioned ease of construction. The Domino allows you to just strike through a mark on the mating pieces. Drilling the two sides is as fast as a biscuit joiner . In fact, because of the variable width switch, accurate marking isn't even that critical.

Traditional M&T is slow in comparison because you have to set up for the mortise and then set up for the tenon. Two completely different machines.

You can still cut wide tenons with the Domino by making overlapping cuts. This only means you'll have to make your own tenon stock; something I do anyway.

You can also make thicker mortises if you are willing to square up the ends or use slightly narrower tenons to avoid the resultant scallops at the narrow ends of the mortise.

The Domino can also help you with panel glue ups or other operations where you may want horizontally indexed mortises.

There exists an adapter for the large Domino from Seneca that allows you to make mortises as skinny as 4mm.

Last, the Domino has fantastic chip/dust collection. In fact, you will require a shop vac with an appropriate hose/adapter for the Domino to operate effectively - especially on deep mortises. If you do not, the unit will be less stable during the cut, and fills with dust that can affect the ability to register the next cut.

I have not tested it on one, but I would feel 100% comfortable using the Domino on the heaviest of doors and dining room table bases.

Last, I have used the Domino to make traditional bridle joints and traditional mortises for fixed tenons. I cut the mortises a tad wider than needed, and then chamfer the tenon ends to fit. It's quick work

[Patrick Walsh]

I have worked plenty with teak so i about about cleaning with lacquer thinner.

Funny you mention it as i was just pondering the topic of Domino or Slot Mortiser again and gave thought to this. Sipo tenons glued into teak and adhesion at a joint like that on a heavy passage door.

The doors will be 2" thick styles and rails with at least 3/4 bead board panels. Point is they are going to be quite heavy.

I wish i trust myself to use a drill press and hand cut them. The teak wood is so expensive for this project "three doors" idon't want to make any mistakes and need to keep waste to a minimum.

My 2 cents worth. If you have the ability to cut conventional mortises and tenons, then I would go the tried and true method that has been successful for years instead of using something you are unsure about.

Bear in mind that teak is a very hard wood so hand cutting may be difficult. Also, Teak is an oily wood, be sure to clean your glue surfaces with a cleaning solvent like lacquer thinner before applying your glue.

[Patrick Walsh]

I think the decision is made as $$$ is becoming more scarce by the minute with the last few things i need to get these two new machines up and running and the tools required to build these doors plus stock.

For instance a buddy "licensed electrician" is coming in to instal a bigger panel to my electrical service and run a bunch of dedicated 220 30 amp lines throughout my shop.

Then their is the Nordfab order to consider. All said and done with Domino electrical and the two machines i must be nearing 20K. Quite a bit of coin for a hourly carpenter. Well worth it though i can hardly wait!




the

I own the larger Domino. I will tell you this: it will change the way you think of M&T. I now only cut them manually for aesthetic (thru-tenons) or emotional reasons.

But for speed and quality, it's very hard to beat.

You mentioned ease of construction. The Domino allows you to just strike through a mark on the mating pieces. Drilling the two sides is as fast as a biscuit joiner . In fact, because of the variable width switch, accurate marking isn't even that critical.

Traditional M&T is slow in comparison because you have to set up for the mortise and then set up for the tenon. Two completely different machines.

You can still cut wide tenons with the Domino by making overlapping cuts. This only means you'll have to make your own tenon stock; something I do anyway.

You can also make thicker mortises if you are willing to square up the ends or use slightly narrower tenons to avoid the resultant scallops at the narrow ends of the mortise.

The Domino can also help you with panel glue ups or other operations where you may want horizontally indexed mortises.

There exists an adapter for the large Domino from Seneca that allows you to make mortises as skinny as 4mm.

Last, the Domino has fantastic chip/dust collection. In fact, you will require a shop vac with an appropriate hose/adapter for the Domino to operate effectively - especially on deep mortises. If you do not, the unit will be less stable during the cut, and fills with dust that can affect the ability to register the next cut.

I have not tested it on one, but I would feel 100% comfortable using the Domino on the heaviest of doors and dining room table bases.

Last, I have used the Domino to make traditional bridle joints and traditional mortises for fixed tenons. I cut the mortises a tad wider than needed, and then chamfer the tenon ends to fit. It's quick work

[Jamie Buxton]

Given teak's reputation for bad glue joints, I'd cross-pin the tenons. You could pin from just one face, so there's no end-grain on the outside of the exterior doors. Or you could through-pin, and use the pins as decoration. This would work even if you use loose tenons like dominos.

[Patrick Walsh]

My plan was to cross pin with ebony in the Green &Green style for exactly the reason you suggested.

My house is arts and crafts so it should look sharp also.

Given teak's reputation for bad glue joints, I'd cross-pin the tenons. You could pin from just one face, so there's no end-grain on the outside of the exterior doors. Or you could through-pin, and use the pins as decoration. This would work even if you use loose tenons like dominos.

[roger wiegand]

Not sure I understand the need for megabuck machines to make three doors. If you had to make a hundred of them, sure, but it doesn't sound like you're going into production. Why not use 1) a drill press to rough out then chisel to clean up the mortises, 2) a plunge router with a template, either round the tenon corners or square them with a chisel, 3) a square chisel mortising machine? Teak is tough, but if you spend some time sharpening you'll be done in a day with any of these methods and have strong, worry-free joints.

[Steve Jenkins]

Not sure what your final decision is but I have the felder fd250 and use it a lot for just that thing. I generally make my loose tenons from the same wood as the stiles and rails.
About teak. Over the years I have used a lot of teak working on boats and associated cabinetry and millwork and haven't found it to be a very hard wood at all. In fact fairly soft when compared to many hardwoods. It does have a high silica content so dulls steel knives and cutters rapidly

[lowell holmes]

There are less expensive ways to make the m&t joints. I cut the mortises with a router (mortise pal) and use slip tenons. If your concerned about glue failure, you can use dowels through the joints. A dowel plate from LV or LN will allow you to make teak dowels if you want to. The mortise pal is quick.