Open Handle Backsaws.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tony

My mitre box is a Millers Falls, not a Disston. The #15 1/2 was made by MF. As far as I am aware, saws for MF were made by their own factory, not Disston (my MF74C has the original 28" MF saw). In any event, the 12" Disston saw you have is far too short.

In addition to the factory brochure I posted (above), here is a link to a post by Chris Schwarz, where he mentions that the 14" replacement saw he has is too short for his #16 1/2 (because that mitre box, too, used a 16" saw): http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...on-mitre-boxes

I would suggest that your saw is unmodified, but it was never intended for the #15 1/2 mitre box. It was a replacement for the original saw by a previous owner - unless you purchased the MF new ... nah, you're not that old!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Zaffuto]

Hi Tony

My mitre box is a Millers Falls, not a Disston. The #15 1/2 was made by MF. As far as I am aware, saws for MF were made by their own factory, not Disston (my MF74C has the original 28" MF saw). In any event, the 12" Disston saw you have is far too short.

In addition to the factory brochure I posted (above), here is a link to a post by Chris Schwarz, where he mentions that the 14" replacement saw he has is too short for his #16 1/2 (because that mitre box, too, used a 16" saw): http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...on-mitre-boxes

I would suggest that your saw is unmodified, but it was never intended for the #15 1/2 mitre box. It was a replacement for the original saw by a previous owner - unless you purchased the MF new ... nah, you're not that old!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

Miter box is MF and saw by Disston. Thread got started because of questions about Disston making open handled backsaws (catalog only listed Jackson and Davis). It was for this reason that maybe 6, 8 years ago, in an old tool list discussion, Pete Taran expressed an interest in having a closer look at my saw, and I mailed it out to him.

Saw works in the miter box, but is a tad short (center to center spacing of upright guides is 6"). For molding, such as a 3/4" saw is fine, but don't try anything wider than 1-1/2" to 1-3/4", else the saw will slip out of the rear guide.

T.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Jim. Sounds like Beech was the primary handle wood used by Disston. http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/sawhandle.html

Stewie;

Interesting read thanks for the link.

jtk

[Jim Davis]

I don't think Millers Falls ever actually made saws. Like many other hardware makers and hardware dealers, they had Disston and others label their saws with the sellers' names.

Also agree with those above who note that a saw used as intended will never have a broken handle. Now dropping a saw on the handle is a different story.

[Stewie Simpson]

IMO. Within a well designed open handle, substantial and unbroken long grain will be seen running through the neck of the handle. As an example, from the following list of open handle shapes #4;#5;#6;#10;#12;#14;#16; & #18 from my perspective, represent excellent examples of this characteristic.

I have defined the neck of the handle as the area of bridge that seperates the cheek from the grip.

Stewie;

http://www.backsaw.net/cpg/displayim..._display_media

[Stewie Simpson]

The forward weight of the blade assembly should also be considered a critical decision within the total design of an open handle backsaw. Others may view differently, but I consider as a general rule the following targets should not be exceeded; length #12 inch; depth below the hardback #2 1/2 inch.

Stewie;

[Phill LeBlanc]

Why not post them here so we can all see?

One of my Disston back saws has an open handle. Of course it is a replacement handle made by me.

jtk

same here - but most folks don't know what it used to look like ...
2016-11-03 09.32.52.jpg

before:
Disston 10_ back saw 1.jpg

I prefer an open handle backsaw and this one cleaned up nice and fits my hand just fine.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

same here - but most folks don't know what it used to look like ...
2016-11-03 09.32.52.jpg

before:
Disston 10_ back saw 1.jpg

I prefer an open handle backsaw and this one cleaned up nice and fits my hand just fine.

Hey Phill,

You responded to a thread from 2015.... Of course, I had missed that thread when it came out.

Looks like you did a good job there.

So, did you have a saw with a broken handle, or did you choose to make it open because it fits your hand better?

I had a saw with a handle that pinched my hand and if I had opened the handle, it would have helped I think. No idea on strength or integrity.

Been thinking about making my own handle, but there is this little issue of time.

[Stanley Covington]

Hi Jim. Sounds like Beech was the primary handle wood used by Disston. http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/sawhandle.html

Stewie;

Looking at my collection, Disston used Beech for lower-grade saws, and Apple for higher-grade saws. My Jackson brand backsaw is also beech.

Stan

From the Disstonian Institute:
Beech is the wood generally used, but apple is the favorite.

[george wilson]

I can't see that those delicate and thin lamb's tongues added much strength to the closed back handle style.

[Pete Taran]

A couple of random thoughts to add to the discussion. Disston used apple for 90+% of the saws it made. D8, D23, #12, #16, #120, #9 and their later counterparts, all apple. Disston backssaws all had apple as well. Disston used Beech for their #7 saw, which was the only saw in their main line to use beech. They did use it on Jacksons as well, and the Brown line, but even some secondary quality saws used apple. Why? I think you need to remember where Disston was set up. Philadelphia. I went to college in Carlisle which is west of there, and let me tell you, there are a lot of apple orchards in that part of PA. Adams and Bucks counties, orchards galore. So, it only made sense that Disston used what he could get. Apple.

The open handle backsaw thread is interesting. The saw that Tony has is not an anomaly or a user modified example. Disston did make open handled backsaws that were not part of the Jackson line. I have not seen them in any catalog, but I personally own enough of them that I know they were a regular factory item. Attached is a picture of two, the top one has the inch worn logo on the spine, the lower one not, both have Disston and Sons split nut medallions. I have quite a few others that are later, these were just handy and next to each other in the saw stockpile. The reason they made these is not hard to understand if you think about it. Disston started making their own crucible steel back around the time of the civil war. Up until then it was imported from England. As a result it was called "London Spring" because that was known in the marketplace and consumers knew it was good stuff. It should be no surprise then that Disston continued to mark their own steel "London Spring", even though it had no connection at all to London.

Open handled backsaws are uniquely British. Especially in the dovetail saw range. It is not surprising to me that Disston made an open handled saw to "reassure" tradition bound consumers that their saw was a chip off the old block. The fact that it wasn't in the catalog supports this idea. Publicly advertise your own closed handle saw, while secretly selling the open handled variety through the dealers to people that insisted on one. As the company grew, they faded out. Most of the saws I have with open handles are early, like the two shown. However, I have some that are like the one in question. I think they were pretty much gone by the turn of the century when Disston did not need training wheel advertising help by hanging on to tradition.

Hope this helps.

Pete

OpenBack.jpg

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks for the input Pete. Very informative and very welcome.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Open handled backsaws are uniquely British. Especially in the dovetail saw range. It is not surprising to me that Disston made an open handled saw to "reassure" tradition bound consumers that their saw was a chip off the old block. The fact that it wasn't in the catalog supports this idea. Publicly advertise your own closed handle saw, while secretly selling the open handled variety through the dealers to people that insisted on one. As the company grew, they faded out. Most of the saws I have with open handles are early, like the two shown. However, I have some that are like the one in question. I think they were pretty much gone by the turn of the century when Disston did not need training wheel advertising help by hanging on to tradition.

Pete

OpenBack.jpg

Pete:

It would seem that the closed handle would take more time/money to produce than the open handle. Is this consistent with your experience?

If it did take more time/money to produce, and some consumers preferred the more Britishy (sic) open handle, why do you think Disston promoted closed handles? Was it a quality issue? Was it a marketing strategy ("Sturdier and More Attractive")? What do you believe the public perception of the two types of saw handles was among consumers at the time?

Your insight would be appreciated.

Stan

[Pete Taran]

Stan,

Having made more than a few saw handles, it's definitely easier to make an open handed handle as opposed to a closed one. Your question is a good one, why did virtually ALL American makers then take on more work for themselves with the open handled design?

To understand this reason, you have to put yourself in the mindset at the time, which is definitely not the mindset of today. Today, whatever is cheapest is what wins, and if you don't like it, tough.

Back then, however, I think a few things were at play. First, and with Disston especially, I think the view was to come up with something uniquely American. Even though we were apart from the British for almost 100 years, there still was the prevailing wisdom that British stuff was the best. Many makers, including Disston, worked hard to overcome that perception. Disston even lobbied Congress to put the British Steel imports out of business and for a time had a monopoly on the High Carbon Tool Steel used in saws and plane irons. So, anything that could further the goal that American was the predominant industrial might in the world was favored over one that wasn't.

Second, I think Henry was a purist as well. Even though the closed handle tote was more time consuming to make, he judged it better, and as a result that's what they made. I think there were a lot of reasons for this, National Pride, Engineering, etc. Think of the skew backed handsaw blade. He judged it superior and America agreed! There are more Disston D8s floating around than any other model of vintage handsaw. The heavy straight bladed saws were a thing of the past. All this took placed around the same time, the tail end of Henry Disston's life. As the leader of the saw making world, his tastes impacted greatly the motives of other makers. Everyone wanted to be like Henry, so they copied what sold. As soon as a patent ran out, they were right their with their version.

All these ideas are theories. Disston never wrote anything down with respect to his motives, but you can look for clues as to the motivation. He was full of pride and even said on many occasions: "If you want a Saw, it is best to get one with a name on it that has a reputation. A man who was made a reputation for his goods knows its value, as well as its cost, and will maintain it." I adopted this philosophy when I started making backsaws under the Independence Tool banner. It's hard to go wrong with a well designed quality product to which there is no peer.

On the other hand, Disston was running a business. He wasn't so full of pride that if someone wanted X, he refused to make it. The catalogs always had a line in them about custom orders available on request. Disston wanted every saw making dollar the public could spare, and if that meant making stuff that some still didn't get the message on, then he would do it in hopes of convincing them on a future sale. As I mentioned earlier, at some point the Disston momentum took over and they stopped catering to British leaning tastes. If you wanted a backsaw, it was coming with a closed handle.

Hope this helps.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Thanks for the input Pete. Very informative and very welcome.

Stan

Pete: + 1 on what Stanley says - your input is always welcome to me and many others - thanks!

Dave B