Questions about choosing & using DYES.

[Allan Speers]

Man, I had no idea it was this complicated !

I'm refinishing all the Oak trim in my house. There are a ton of small nicks, and also areas where paint spills had been removed with stripper, which also removed the original finish. The original finish appears to be a tinted pre-cat, or possibly a very hard poly. I'm not 100% sure which of these I'll use, but regardless I need to tint just the "bald" areas first, then I'll go over the entire trim with a clear satin coat.


At first I planned to use a dark Oak aniline dye, hand-applied, but then I realized there are a number of different types of dyes. Head starts to explode .....

So here are some immediate questions, I welcome ANY thoughts at all:

1: Aniline powder, or Transtint?

- Transtint appears to have the advantage of mixing with just about everything, but it's also quite a bit more expensive, especially considering that I might have to buy 4-5 different colors in order to stumble upon the correct replacement mix.

- With dyes, I have to choose between water, alcohol, and oil soluble. I'd rather not have to deal with grain-raising, so I'd love to rule-out water based, but water-based is the most light-fast. Would this really matter?

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2: Should I apply the dye directly to the wood, or make my own tinted replacement finish? (Still using a final clear coat to bring it all together)

- Applying directly would make it MUCH easier to not overlap the old finish, and to clean up any overspill.
- However, using a tinted replacement finish might match better, since that's what it was originally.

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3: How the heck can one determine the actual color that will result? I've seen the little squares on the color chart, but what does that MEAN? This isn't paint. Is there anywhere I can see some examples of various dyes, AFTER they've been applied to several different wood species? (Wouldn't this make sense?)

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4: If I go with poly, for durability, is there any particular brand of satin poly that looks more like pre-cat than dull plastic? (Poly is practically against my religion.) Of the four polys I've tried on a test piece, Varathane triple-thick looks the best, but it's still not as nice as the original finish.

Deft brushing laquer (10% nitro) and Minwax spray laquer both look fantastic, virtually identical to the original finish, so poly is a tough (pun intended) compromise.

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5: Brushing laquer looks fantastic, but I've been told it might not hold up as well. (In the few spots where it might get hit.) Is there any (non catylized) brushing laquer that's extra-tough? Is there such a thing as 2-part brushing laquer?
(Sort of a brush-on pre-cat?)

[John TenEyck]

I would use a water soluble dye, either Transfast or Transtint, because it will only go into the areas that were stripped. On any areas with finish on them it won't absorb. The only way to do a color match is to work on some samples, either of the trim itself or something similar to it. And the only way to know what the color will look like after finishing is to carry the process through start to finish. There just aren't any magic bullets. If it helps, there are samples of Transtint on various woods and finished at my local Rockler's. But that's still just a guide and won't be of much help once you start intermixing colors.

For the topcoat I would consider a WB product. If you can spray GF's Enduro Clear Poly is beautifully clear and very durable. If you can only brush, GF's HP Poly looks just as good but isn't as durable against ammonia cleaners or alcohol. GF's EnduroVar, however, is even more durable then Clear Poly, and can be brushed. But it imparts a slight amber tone which you may or may not like. You can add Transtint to any of these finishes to create toners, too.

Make specimens. Go from there.

John

[Allan Speers]

Thanks, John, that's incredibly helpful.


Great point about the water-based dyes, but I'm slightly confused: Transtint can be mixed into oils, varnishes, glues, etc. Therefore, isn't it NOT technically a water-soluable dye, in regards to your point, above? Shouldn't I ONLY use water-soluable aniline dye? (such as Transfast, or J E Moser)

[John TenEyck]

Allan, Transtint is soluble in water, alcohol, and lacquer thinner (and maybe a couple other things). But it's not directly soluble in oil, varnishes, or similar products. You can add it to some oil based products by first diluting it in lacquer thinner, but that's not something commonly done.

John

[Prashun Patel]

I love using dyes when appropriate, but it just may be a little more work than is worth it. Can you post a pic of the trim with some of the problem areas?

It might be easiest to use a stain touch up pen to get close.

Do you have the ability to spray? You're best shot at a match IMHO is to use a stain pen as a driver, then make a shellac toner as a putter to blend and seal. Transtint is the easiest for this.

[Allan Speers]

Allan, Transtint is soluble in water, alcohol, and lacquer thinner (and maybe a couple other things). But it's not directly soluble in oil, varnishes, or similar products. You can add it to some oil based products by first diluting it in lacquer thinner, but that's not something commonly done.

John

I'm sure you are right, based on your actual experience. However, for the record, this is how it is advertised:

"For use as a finish toner, simply add the dye concentrate to shellac, water-base finishes, solvent lacquers, and catalyzed varnish or lacquers."

- So I'm a bit confused. I love the idea of using a dye that won't readily sink into the existing finish, and want to use the absolute best one in regards to this.

[Allan Speers]

For the topcoat I would consider a WB product. If you can spray GF's Enduro Clear Poly is beautifully clear and very durable. If you can only brush, GF's HP Poly looks just as good but isn't as durable against ammonia cleaners or alcohol. GF's EnduroVar, however, is even more durable then Clear Poly, and can be brushed. But it imparts a slight amber tone which you may or may not like. You can add Transtint to any of these finishes to create toners, too.

Yeah, I like the idea of a WB finish, due to lack of fumes. There's no way I'm going to spray this, even though I have an excellent HPLV system, so I'll get some GF HP Poly and test it. - Though I'm not crazy about it's lack of resistance to ammonia cleaners. That seems like a very bad idea.

Although it's oil-based, how would you rank ARM-R-SEAL in terms of "laquer-like appearance?' I ask because it's specifically recommended to apply it with a rag or foam brush.

[Prashun Patel]

"For use as a finish toner, simply add the dye concentrate to shellac, water-base finishes, solvent lacquers, and catalyzed varnish or lacquers."

- So I'm a bit confused. I love the idea of using a dye that won't readily sink into the existing finish, and want to use the absolute best one in regards to this.

Transtint is not well dissolved directly into varnish. You can try it. I can vouch for John's advice and other places I've read that say to use a bridging solvent like acetone or lacquer thinner.

If you put down a coat of transtint and then wipe or brush an oil based varnish on top, it's possible to get a tiny bit of lifting; your bristles or rag may come away a little dark from the dye. But in my experience, if you're reasonably quick and gentle, it won't affect the look at all. Now, if you try brushing or wiping on a waterbased finish right on top of your transtint, you'll notice more lift. Especially on dark coloring, you can get streaks of light spots.

The lifting issue is mitigated if you can spray; spraying deposits a sealing coat on top without disturbing the color in the wood - provided you don't put it on too thick. Once that barrier layer is down, subsequent, thicker coats won't disturb the dye as easily.

[Allan Speers]

Thanks, Prashun. With both of you guys saying the same thing, I feel confident that GF was being a little loose with their description. (Oddly, there is no way to actually contact General Finishes directly.)


As for the lifting issue, while I can't spray the entire trim, perhaps it would help to spray only the touched-up areas, after the stain has fully dried, with Zinser shellac? (then brush on my top coat.) That wouldn't cause too much mess in the house, and it's not a health hazard.

Yes?

[John TenEyck]

As I said, Transtint is soluble in lacquer thinner, hence it can be added to lacquer. I don't know what the solvent is for catalyzed varnish but I can speak from experience that Transtint will not blend directly in oil based varnish.

You can contact General Finishes directly. You can send them an e-mail or you can call them. I've talked with one of their chemists a couple of times.

John

[Allan Speers]

You can contact General Finishes directly. You can send them an e-mail or you can call them. I've talked with one of their chemists a couple of times.

John

I couldn't find ANY contact info online, after some heavy searching. Neither could the guys at Woodcraft !

If you have a phone #, I sure would love to have it.