I Don't Need No Stinkin End Vise

[ken hatch]

The bench before this last bench had a wagon vise, the ones before that had several different single or twin screw metal vises. As I planned this bench build I realized the only times I had used the wagon vise were when it was new and then only to try it out, a new toy don'tchknow. I made the decision to leave the vice in the tail position off the new build. The new bench has been in use for well over a year and not once have I thought "Gee whiilkers I wish I'd included a tail vise".

As always with all things wood....YMMV. Here's a photo of the bench in use where a tail vise might be used. I think the use of a batten and holdfast is better but...see above .





ken

[ian maybury]

Hi Ken. How do you hold a narrow board to plane it lengthwise? In that case the holdfast would have to go where you want to plane.

I've seen various stop at the far end, and 90deg notched board secured at 45 deg using a holdfast at the other, but wonder about it's ability to hold in all directions?

[Matthew N. Masail]

No doubt one can get along without a tail\wagon vise. in MANY different ways some of which can be batter for a given operation. but for me having a wagon vise sure does come in handy, I like dogging things down.

[Jim Koepke]

Everyone has there own way to do things which make woodworking such fun.

My tail vise gets more use than my face vise. It has to do with how the bench is oriented in my shop.

With my simple (racking) vise it is easy to use an Anti Rack Spacer Stack to regulate the vise movement so it doesn't make thin stock bow.

There are also a lot of Holding Without a Vise methods to hold work.

If a lot of pieces of the same size need to be worked, it is often faster to use battens instead of a vise.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Hi Ken. How do you hold a narrow board to plane it lengthwise? In that case the holdfast would have to go where you want to plane.

I've seen various stop at the far end, and 90deg notched board secured at 45 deg using a holdfast at the other, but wonder about it's ability to hold in all directions?

Ian,

It depend on how narrow and face or edge. For narrow edge I sometimes use the face vise and a support board on the apron. If it is wide enough to stand but still narrow I will sometimes use a "V" stop, 19mm or more, depending on height, any stop works. For face planing, stops with either battens and/or a doe's foot works very well. I will usually go for a "loose" board method if able, less chance of distorting the board.

ken

[Graham Haydon]

Nice Ken, I've been working on just planing against a stop lately on narrow strips and it seems a good option. i fully agree about working on a board with no tension on it. Again it needs a bit of practice but at least you know it's not going to spring under clamping pressure.

[ken hatch]

Nice Ken, I've been working on just planing against a stop lately on narrow strips and it seems a good option. i fully agree about working on a board with no tension on it. Again it needs a bit of practice but at least you know it's not going to spring under clamping pressure.

Graham,

I think it is worth the effort in feedback alone and most of the time it is much quicker to work loose boards.

ken

[Frederick Skelly]

I use the same setup as you Ken. I use holdfasts plus various "appliances" to address specific cases - thin strips, narrow strips, etc - but no tail vise. So far I've been able to do everything I need.

BTW, that sure is a nice bench!
Fred

[ian maybury]

Thanks Ken. It's a great thread to promote some lateral thinking.

Pardon what might seem like a hijack, but it brings some generalised philosophical points (that say nothing about how anybody in particular works) to mind.

Like all things woodworking the hard part is that it's often necessary to try out all the better looking options to enable a decision on the best solution for lots of things. Which is highly labour intensive.

Yet the other polarity (of repetition - 'this is how it's done and has always been done, so shut up and just do it') has major downsides. (and i'd hate to have to work to the prescribed methods all of the time)

A compromise might be that we try methods in a structured way, precisely define the situations where a given one works well - and then pass the information into some sort of central repository for sharing.

It's all very well being self sufficient and independent minded (and without it discoveries don't get made), but it's equally the case that we don't each have long enough to live to reinvent every 'wheel' we encounter.

We're these days societally and mentally programmed to innovate, but it's actually scary how many solutions must get lost in the resulting whirl. There's a very fine line between 'conservation of knowledge' and getting caught up in an unhealthy stasis. The really scary bit is perhaps that an awful lots of the factors that might make it possible to strike the right balance depend heavily on pretty much all of the players behaving in a trustworthy manner. That's behaving in a manner that demonstrates ability/competence, goodwill/benevolence, integrity/honesty and predictability…. (this is one definition of the factors underlying trust)

It's interesting to think that maybe a forum like this is an early progenitor of a system of this sort…..

[Reinis Kanders]

I put dogholes about an inch from the edge for my new tail vise and I find it works well for a lot of small things where I previously had to use a variation of a sticking board. Also was planing and 1/8 inch thin piece and tailvise was pretty handy for that.

[ken hatch]

I use the same setup as you Ken. I use holdfasts plus various "appliances" to address specific cases - thin strips, narrow strips, etc - but no tail vise. So far I've been able to do everything I need.

BTW, that sure is a nice bench!
Fred

Thanks Fred,

It, the bench, has been a joy to use from the get go. I would not advocate its design for others although I will advise new bench builders to build a simple, cheap bench to start, one you can modify to see what works and to plan on building several. Then over several bench builds and mods find what works for your personal work flow. Once you have a good idea build your Taj-Mabench. This is my Taj-Mabench. It has everything I need but nothing extra to get in the way, after a year or so of use there is nothing I would change.

ken

[ken hatch]

Thanks Ken. It's a great thread to promote some lateral thinking.

Pardon what might seem like a hijack, but it brings some generalised philosophical points (that say nothing about how anybody in particular works) to mind.

Like all things woodworking the hard part is that it's often necessary to try out all the better looking options to enable a decision on the best solution for lots of things. Which is highly labour intensive.

Yet the other polarity (of repetition - 'this is how it's done and has always been done, so shut up and just do it') has major downsides. (and i'd hate to have to work to the prescribed methods all of the time)

A compromise might be that we try methods in a structured way, precisely define the situations where a given one works well - and then pass the information into some sort of central repository for sharing.

It's all very well being self sufficient and independent minded (and without it discoveries don't get made), but it's equally the case that we don't each have long enough to live to reinvent every 'wheel' we encounter.

We're these days societally and mentally programmed to innovate, but it's actually scary how many solutions must get lost in the resulting whirl. There's a very fine line between 'conservation of knowledge' and getting caught up in an unhealthy stasis. The really scary bit is perhaps that an awful lots of the factors that might make it possible to strike the right balance depend heavily on pretty much all of the players behaving in a trustworthy manner. That's behaving in a manner that demonstrates ability/competence, goodwill/benevolence, integrity/honesty and predictability…. (this is one definition of the factors underlying trust)

It's interesting to think that maybe a forum like this is an early progenitor of a system of this sort…..

Ian,

I don't think it's a hijack, most of the reason for the post was a tongue in cheek post about other ways of holding work. While the bones of my bench are French, the skin is English. The English method of holding wood was highly evolved over time and efficient. Its simplicity appeals to me.

ken

[ken hatch]

Everyone has there own way to do things which make woodworking such fun.

My tail vise gets more use than my face vise. It has to do with how the bench is oriented in my shop.

With my simple (racking) vise it is easy to use an Anti Rack Spacer Stack to regulate the vise movement so it doesn't make thin stock bow.

There are also a lot of Holding Without a Vise methods to hold work.

If a lot of pieces of the same size need to be worked, it is often faster to use battens instead of a vise.

jtk

Jim,

I made a 'board claw", it works well but I don't use it. It is in my bench appliance pile under the bench and I expect some day I may run into a holding problem that it would be the perfect solution. Whatever, it is a perfect example of letting physics and/or gravity work for you.

ken

[Mike Holbrook]

I plan to use a tail vise. In my case, part of the reason for the tail vise has to do with holding things to the side of the bench, as the side of the tail vise will have dog holes as well as the top. Maybe there are uses for a tail vise other than clamping objects to the top of a bench for working board faces. I expect I will clamp chair seats for carving...

[Steve Voigt]

Yet the other polarity (of repetition - 'this is how it's done and has always been done, so shut up and just do it') has major downsides. (and i'd hate to have to work to the prescribed methods all of the time)

Hi Ian,

What are the downsides?

Can you think of a specific example--just one example--of a traditional technique or method that isn't highly efficient/effective?

I'm betting you can't, but I'll give you full marks if you can surprise me.