First time handcut dovetails

[Simon MacGowen]

Without personal experience you basically have to choose some craftsman or author whose work you admire and start by emulating them. It's a lottery, otherwise just buy the cheapest sharp saw you can find while you experiment with the rest of the steps.

On my journey I've found chisels to be a far more significant tool in getting my dovetails going rather than the saw. Don't sweat the saw, the chisel dilemma is going to be far worse.

just buy the cheapest sharp saw you can find while you experiment with the rest of the steps.

That sure is one way to do it, but one that I would strongly advise against. Get the best saw you can afford and where possible get someone who has had reasonably good experience in dovetails to show you the steps or take a class. That is the most effective way of learning. Yes, the Veritas dovetail saw is more than good enough (get the 14tpi rip if you can't afford to have the cross cut as well).

In dovetail work, the saws are more important than the chisels (cheap chisels are ok as long as they are sharp). If you saw well, you don't need much chisel work, but not the other way round. Your sawing skill is most critical and far more important than your chiseling techniques. Don't start with the premise that you can cover your poor sawing skills with a chisel -- that would be painfully ineffective, time-wasting and unproductive. Better start on the right foot and get your sawing skills up to speed first.

In fact, my recommendation is that don't even try dovetailing until you've acquired the basic sawing skills -- cutting plumb and square, at the very least. Unless frustrations don't bother you and you have a fire wood bin to fill.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Thanks to everyone for such great feedback (and the pics Brian!). I have very littlee experience with hand saws as I never use them. I thoughtt he Veritas would be a slam dunk when I posted this, but some good points are made for the Dozuki as all. I am still learning toward the Veritas, but appreciate everyone's feedback. Thanks,and keep it coming .

Go ahead with the Veritas dovetail saw, but if you've never used a backsaw at all, dovetails should not be the first joint to try, until you've developed the basic sawing skills, as I've pointed out in my other post. Practice and good luck,

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

Get the best saw you can afford and where possible get someone who has had reasonably good experience in dovetails to show you the steps or take a class. That is the most effective way of learning. Yes, the Veritas dovetail saw is more than good enough (get the 14tpi rip if you can't afford to have the cross cut as well).

In dovetail work, the saws are more important than the chisels (cheap chisels are ok as long as they are sharp). If you saw well, you don't need much chisel work, but not the other way round. Your sawing skill is most critical and far more important than your chiseling techniques. Don't start with the premise that you can cover your poor sawing skills with a chisel -- that would be painfully ineffective, time-wasting and unproductive. Better start on the right foot and get your sawing skills up to speed first.

In fact, my recommendation is that don't even try dovetailing until you've acquired the basic sawing skills -- cutting plumb and square, at the very least. Unless frustrations don't bother you and you have a fire wood bin to fill.

Simon

As my sawing has improved there is a lot less chisel work on my dovetails.

A lot of my work would have never been done if getting my skills up to speed was pursued instead of doing the projects that improved my skills over the years they were done.

If one can not learn from their own errors and frustrations, they will not learn much of anything.

What is that old saying? "The one who makes no mistakes likely doesn't make anything else."

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

What is that old saying? "The one who makes no mistakes likely doesn't make anything else."

jtk

That wasn't what I wrote. I didn't ask the OP to avoid making mistakes; I was speaking from someone who has taught many how to cut dovetails including those who had never held a saw before. Your way of learning may work for you, but as a teacher, I would not advise my students to learn as difficult as a dovetail joint the way you did. That's how I teach and how I advise people who are interested in cutting dovetails: learning the basic sawing skills first, then the layout techniques, etc. before worrying about what sawing to the line means.

Yes, some can cut anything without a helping hand from anyone. They are the minority. I am offering my advice based on my years of teaching experience and observations and of course, it is not the only way to do things. But my advice is free and anyone can take it or ignore it.

Simon

[Jim Koepke]

That wasn't what I wrote. I didn't ask the OP to avoid making mistakes; I was speaking from someone who has taught many how to cut dovetails including those who had never held a saw before. Your way of learning may work for you, but as a teacher, I would not advise my students to learn as difficult as a dovetail joint the way you did. That's how I teach and how I advise people who are interested in cutting dovetails: learning the basic sawing skills first, then the layout techniques, etc. before worrying about what sawing to the line means.

Yes, some can cut anything without a helping hand from anyone. They are the minority. I am offering my advice based on my years of teaching experience and observations and of course, it is not the only way to do things. But my advice is free and anyone can take it or ignore it.

Simon

Simon, I was not trying to upset you or belittle your advise. Some of us do not have a mentor or even a class we can take close at hand.

You did not write,

What is that old saying? "The one who makes no mistakes likely doesn't make anything else."

It is what I wrote. You did write:

Better start on the right foot and get your sawing skills up to speed first.

In fact, my recommendation is that don't even try dovetailing until you've acquired the basic sawing skills -- cutting plumb and square, at the very least. Unless frustrations don't bother you and you have a fire wood bin to fill.

There are still a lot of ill fitting dovetails on boxes in my shop and home. Many of my practice dovetails did end up in the fire wood box, but never a bin full. The outcome of that is now my new projects have respectable dovetails. There is a drawer in my shop that was built with dovetails when it was too cold to use glue. My intention was to glue it up when spring arrived. It has been almost two years now and it still hasn't needed to be glued. Now my intention is to see how long it can hold up without glue.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...hop-for-Gluing

And I will be the first to say my dovetails are not as good as most people post about here. But they work. Instead of waiting for the skill level to come to me, the skill came to me by cutting dovetails and then cutting them again.

A great way to learn dovetails for a beginner is to buy a piece of inexpensive wood from the BORG and spend some time practicing dovetails and learning from the experience.

Cutting pins is a good practice to learn to cut plumb. Cutting tails is good practice to learn to cut square. One just has to calibrate their eye, saw and line to adjust for loose or tight fits.

Jump in with both feet and just do it!

jtk

[Graham Haydon]

Hi Scott

Both saws would be fine for dovetailing. I've used a dozuki and western saws and have no issue swapping between the two. Practice is going to be more important than which of those two saws is best. Also, if you don't like your choice you can always sell it.

[Scott Cenicola]

just buy the cheapest sharp saw you can find while you experiment with the rest of the steps.

That sure is one way to do it, but one that I would strongly advise against. Get the best saw you can afford

Simon

Good catch Simon. I almost took that advice, as I am kind of a cheapskate at heart. I am trying to live by the "cry once" rule and always try to by the best tool I can afford. Thanks for reassuring the correct path.

I am leaning toward Jim's approach and jumping right in. I'm lucky to get 5-6 hours a week in the shop and I can be pretty stubborn, l want to do what I want to do .I appreciate the warning, and I'm sure there will be some frustration but the learning is fun. Don't get much use for firewood in Tampa, so I guess I'll just cut off the ends and saw until my hands hurt lol.

Thanks again to all, always great advice and good to get opinions of the more experienced .

[Scott Cenicola]

Hi Scott

Both saws would be fine for dovetailing. I've used a dozuki and western saws and have no issue swapping between the two. Practice is going to be more important than which of those two saws is best. Also, if you don't like your choice you can always sell it.

I think you're right, practice will be key. Another advantage to the Veritas is its resale. I'm thinking based on what I read I would need a little more finesse for the dozuki. Another vote for the Veritas, finesse is not my strong point.

[Tom M King]

Brian, those pictures show exactly why my method of maintaining fleam angle when sharpening a saw uses a piece of thin plywood with a bunch of Sharpie lines drawn on it of the fleam angle behind the saw, but in the field of view with the file in it. You can see small variations out of proper alignment without even concentrating on it.

[Brian Holcombe]

It can be incredibly handy, it's surprising how accurate your eye can become with a minor aide.

i often use the side of my bench as a visual gauge as well, especially when making quick cross cuts.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

My first saw was a "gents" saw similar to this one (might have been this one, bought it at woodcraft)

http://www.amazon.com/Crown-187-8-In.../dp/B001V9KOFA

I had lots of trouble with the saw. I had difficulty cutting perpendicular (and to the line).

My next saw was a Lie Nielson dovetail saw, and things improved a lot. Not sure if it is because it is just a better saw or if it is because I could clearly look at the handle and know the angle of the blade. Learn to hold it a specific way and your orientation is correct. With the gent saw (which has a handle similar to the pull saws), just grasping the handle may not provide orientation information.

My only point in all this is that if it is possible, try a few saw types before you purchase one.

[Daniel Rode]

My first saw was a "gents" saw similar to this one (might have been this one, bought it at woodcraft)

I had the same experience with the same saw. I thought the problem was ME. Much later on, I was able to tune it to cut straight by stoning the sides to even out the set.

[Brian Holcombe]

Scott, I'm cutting dovetails currently for my cabinet build, I put together some extra detail on the shots in case you or anyone else would like a detailed walk-through ( semi walk through). There is tons and tons of stuff out there on cutting dovetails, but a little more can't hurt!

[Scott Cenicola]

Thanks Brian. I went through your photobucket, you do some very nice work.

I ordered my marking wheel and knife from Rockler the other day. I live about 45 minutes from Woodcraft, so I'm gonna run out and pick up the saw one day next week. Going out of town next weekend, so my first dovetails are a few weeks away. Been checking out different tutorials on the web. Can't wait to get started. Thanks again for everyone's advice. I'll post some pics .

[Brian Holcombe]

My pleasure! Thanks for the kind words!