Butt Chisel Recommendation

[lowell holmes]

The reason they are called "butt" chisels is because you need a short one to finish the bottom of the top mortise, and top of the bottom mortise on a door jamb for hinge butts. I don't have any other use for a butt chisel, so one no. 60 1-1/2" completely fulfills the need.

I have several Stanley 60's in my collection from the 70's. I like them if I'm not in the shop, but need a chisel. I find the metallurgy to be good. They sharpen well and edge retention is sometimes remarkable. With the metal cap on them, you can whack them good and they hold up.

[David Eisenhauer]

Your original question concerned which chisels to buy and Matt also described a sharpening system to go along with the chisel recommendation. Do not negate the value of the sharpening system as that is at least 50% of the "working with chisels" equation. I recommend going through Stu at "Tools From Japan" for your sharpening needs by letting him know what kind of steel is used for the chisels you select and what you have in mind. I use a Sigma Power II stone set with an Atoma flattener (from Stu), but Shapton/Sigma is almost a Ford/Chevy thing. There will be a slight learning curve on sharpening and there are some excellent instructional videos and books available for both sharpening and chisel use. Many folks have been disappointed after buying either a chisel set or a hand plane and finding out that it is not quite as simple as they perceived it to be. Neither sharpening or hand tool use is rocket science, but both disciplines have their own sets of "tricks of the trade" that assist in more easily and accurately accomplishing the task.

[glenn bradley]

Glenn, would you say the V11's are a cross between a striking chisel and a pairing chisel? Please excuse my ignorance on this. Maybe this is a useful bit of info, I'm using the chisel to mortise out small hinges on boxes. I have literally no learned technique, just learning to use along the way.

I do use them for paring a bit when cutting out the mortise. I also hit them with a mallet. I do not hog out mortise and tenons with them so no beating required ;-) If your chisels are sharp, a bit of tapping with a good weight mallet will cut small box hinges with ease.

I tend to mark them with a wheel gauge.

GnG Wall Cab (62).jpg

Tap across the fibers.

GnG Wall Cab (65).jpg

and sort of pare the waste out.

GnG Wall Cab (63).jpg . GnG Wall Cab (64).jpg

[Kent Adams]

Thanks Dave for the reinforcement on the sharpening. I think my first purchase is going to be the stones because I have a few chisels now I'll try to sharpen to get the hang of it before I purchase new chisels.

[Kent Adams]

Thanks Glenn for the follow up with the pictures of the Veritas. Is there a reason you chose the wider one? It looks to be the 1 1/2". I was thinking of starting off with the 1" one but if you recommend the wider one, perhaps I'll go with that one.

[Kent Adams]

Matthew, what do you think of this combination to start off with?

Shapton 5000 Grit Wine
Shapton 8000 Grit Melon
Shapton 1000 Grit

These stones all together are pretty expensive, but I'd rather buy once and cry so to speak.

[Warren Mickley]

In 1978 I found myself working in a joiner shop at a historic site with an older man. As we waited for visitors to arrive I looked over the tools to see what we had to work with. The other man later told me when I put down a plane on its side he couldn't wait to see if I would do the same with the next plane. He said he didn't care how I put the plane down, but it was a sign that I was particular.

He told me he had never gotten a chisel sharp enough to shave with (no forum or U tube in those days) and I said I could certainly do that for him. Then I had a moment of panic; I could easily do that with my chisels and my stones at home, but could I do so with the chisels and stones available? I found a fine grained 19th century chisel and a Norton medium India (or maybe silicon carbide) and soft Arkansas combination stone and a clean strop. In a short time I had him shaving his arm.

Such a stone costs $50 or less and will indeed get your chisel sharp enough to shave with.

[Kent Adams]

Great story Warren as well as a good lesson.

[Frederick Skelly]

In 1978 I found myself working in a joiner shop at a historic site with an older man. As we waited for visitors to arrive I looked over the tools to see what we had to work with. The other man later told me when I put down a plane on its side he couldn't wait to see if I would do the same with the next plane. He said he didn't care how I put the plane down, but it was a sign that I was particular.

He told me he had never gotten a chisel sharp enough to shave with (no forum or U tube in those days) and I said I could certainly do that for him. Then I had a moment of panic; I could easily do that with my chisels and my stones at home, but could I do so with the chisels and stones available? I found a fine grained 19th century chisel and a Norton medium India (or maybe silicon carbide) and soft Arkansas combination stone and a clean strop. In a short time I had him shaving his arm.

Such a stone costs $50 or less and will indeed get your chisel sharp enough to shave with.

Great story and good information for me Warren. Thank you!
Fred

[Stew Denton]

Kent,

There are a bunch of guys who have posted already who have forgotten more about chisels than I will ever know. That said, no one has answered your question about paring chisels vs firmer chisels (the kind you can use with a mallet.) That said, there is a 3rd kind of chisel, that you also hit with a mallet, which are used to cut mortises and designed to take very serious beatings, but you were asking about paring chisels and firmer chisels.

I currently have no paring chisels in good shape, I have some but haven't made good handles for them yet, but instead try to sharpen my firmer chisels like a paring chisel if I need one. I have quite a few cheaper firmer chisels, so this isn't a problem.

Paring chisels typically have fairly long thin blades, and are sharpened to a lower angle than are firmer chisels. I think that a lot of folks talk about 20 degrees being common, but also know it depends a little on the wood you are working. This lower angle helps when you are paring away wood by hand, which is the typical application. It also seems like the handles you see on some of the traditional paring chisels are slimmer than some of the firmer chisels. Paring chisels should never be struck with a mallet, perhaps lightly with the heal of your hand, but never with a mallet. They are used in hand to pare away wood.

Firmer chisels usually have shorter blades than do paring chisels, and are designed to take a lot harder service. Often the blades are thicker, and the angle that the blade is sharpened to are greater than paring chisels. I have seen values for the sharpening angle from about 25 degrees to maybe 35 degrees. The higher angles hold an edge longer, and are more commonly used on harder woods, with the shallower angles being more typical on softer woods. A typical angle is 30 degrees.

Firmer chisels sometimes either have metal bands around the butt end of the handle, a metal cap on the butt end, or have leather washer like rings on the butt end. These are to protect the handle from the striking action of the mallet. Carpenters chisels, such as the Stanley 60s mentioned above are often butt chisels, which are normally firmer chisels, and have short blades. That type of chisel, butt firmer chisels, is what I used for cutting mortises for hinges back when I carpentered. Back then I had almost no money, so my chisels were not the high dollar variety. Actually they weren't even really firmer chisels, but that is what I used them for. They were inexpensive Stanley chisels, but the steel was pretty good, and if you had them really sharp they did a great job.

For what it's worth, if you have firmer chisels with wooden handles, never strike one with a metal hammer, use a wooden mallet. The metal hammer chews up the wooden handles too quickly.

Thus, you can see from the characteristics of the two types of chisels that they are essentially self exclusive groups. You can kind of have a compromise by using a firmer chisel sharpened at 25 or so and use it for both. There is no free lunch, however, because the edge won't hold nearly as well as if sharpened at a higher angle, and it won't pare quite as well as on sharpened at a shallower angle. However, a high degree of sharpness will compensate for a multitude of sins.

Stew

[Matthew N. Masail]

Matthew, what do you think of this combination to start off with?


Shapton 5000 Grit Wine
Shapton 8000 Grit Melon
Shapton 1000 Grit


These stones all together are pretty expensive, but I'd rather buy once and cry so to speak.

Hi Kent,


Many folks have been happy with a shapton line up, you could do that. if you do make sure to get the 12000 instead of the 8000.
the 8000 is not very much finer than the 5000.


with that said I am not a fan of the higher grit shaptons, they load and stick. the 1000 is the stand out in the range that I really like. it is one of the very best 1000 grit stones.


the Naniwa snow-white is a strong cutter, it can take over the 1k shapton no problem as long as your sharpening approach is reasonable. it's fine and polishes nicely and will get you as sharp as you'd ever need + some, to top it off it has a great feel to it. no doubt a king among 8K stones.


I understand if you prefer to keep stones from a single line up, I'm a little OCD like that too. in that case I'd ditch the shaptons all together and just replace the 1k shapton with a 800 grit Chosera (the snow white is like the chosera's), it's every bit as good as the shapton, very different feel but just as fast and very consistent. but it's more expensive.


As for oil stones.... I love them. but for a beginner if you went with oil stones, you'd need to set up something else up to flatten blade backs because oil stone won't do it, and it will challenge your sharpening skills right from the start. I'd be happy to recommend oil stones as I'm sure other here will be, but I don't think it's the right way to start. you would also be limited when it come to steel types. the PMV-11, A2 and some of the really hard Japanese steels are a PITA on oil stones. I have a Japanese marking gauge with blue steel cutters, the natural oil stones won't even scratch the surface AT ALL, it's funny.


For chisels, I'd really just recommend getting a chisel or two and start working. within a couple of practice hours you will have answered many of your questions in the best way possible.

edit: this set-up is not a "starting off" solution. if you want I could suggest much lower cost options. the stones recommend are for life.

[glenn bradley]

Thanks Glenn for the follow up with the pictures of the Veritas. Is there a reason you chose the wider one? It looks to be the 1 1/2". I was thinking of starting off with the 1" one but if you recommend the wider one, perhaps I'll go with that one.

I have a set less the recently announced 3/8". The value versus size will vary with your use. I find I reach for a 3/8" more than others so if the 3/8" had been available when I got these I would have gotten it. I am using the wide one in the pics because it was good for the paring step with the long piece of hardware I was setting. A wide chisel gives you more registration surface but, if there is not room to set that wide a tool down the benefit is cancelled out. For most small box work I use 3/8" to 1/2" thick material so I reach for a 3/8". Again, this will vary with what you do and how you do it but, if I could only have one, it would be a 3/8" due to the greater versatility of the narrower tool ;-)

[Mike Holbrook]

Hi Kent,

You mentioned at the start that price was not your major consideration. In chisel purchases you might be very surprised how much you can spend for traditional Japanese chisels made by some of the top had forged makers. NO one has mentioned Japanese chisels yet so I will toss them into the ring. Traditional Japanese chisels come in a dizzying array of different types, not to mention varieties. Tools From Japan, Tools for Working Wood and Lee Valley offer good Japanese chisels.I am going to over simplify and say the Japanese offer three main types of chisels: bench chisels, mortise chisels and paring chisels just to give us a place to start. The mortise chisels are typically build to be struck with a special metal hammer, equipped with hardwood handles with metal rings around the ends. The mortise chisels are designed for removing large chunks of wood deep into wood, like mortises. The bench chisels are typically built to be more of a general purpose tool not perfect for making mortises but usable. The bench chisel may be used to pare with too, which is why the blades typically have a lighter/different build. Japanese "bench" chisels can actually be bought in multiple different designs ranging between better at being struck hard with a metal hammer and paring. The Japanese also make long handled chisels with more delicate blades and without rings which are typically used for paring.

Someone else can come right behind me and claim that nothing I have written is actually accurate and have a justifiable argument. However, with limited time and in the interest of brevity I thought I would take a stab at an introduction to Japanese chisels. Suffice it to say that the variety and complexity of traditional Japanese chisels reflects their much longer traditional history. I bring this up because the OP might want to check out some of the Japanese offerings on the front end. I wish I had done a little research into the Japanese chisels before making my first chisel purchases as there is a whole different world of Japanese chisels to learn about.

There is another maker in the US, Barr Tools, that makes very good hand made chisels that some posters swear by. Barr sort of specializes in timber framing chisels but also makes a nice range of carpentry/woodworking chisels/ Barr hand forges chisels like they do in Japan, but the steel is typically just one steel instead of a hard and soft steel forged together.

I am not here to push the OP to more expensive tools, I would just like him to be aware of some of the major ways chisels can be made and the great depth of tools out there before he starts investing his money instead of him discovering it all after making purchases without that knowledge. I like Japanese chisels but Lee Valley's latest offerings may be the best "compromise" all purpose chisel design for someone who wants a single type of chisel or just a good place to start. There are also lots of old chisels that can be great, although in my experience you may very well end up kissing a few frogs in the process.

[Jim Koepke]

As for oil stones.... I love them. but for a beginner if you went with oil stones, you'd need to set up something else up to flatten blade backs because oil stone won't do it, and it will challenge your sharpening skills right from the start. I'd be happy to recommend oil stones as I'm sure other here will be, but I don't think it's the right way to start.

Oilstones didn't work for me until after learning how to sharpen on water stones. For many years my sharpening efforts were frustrating. Water stones actually worked. For a few years after that my oilstones did not get used. Then one day it was too cold in the shop to sharpen with water stones so the oilstones were given another chance. Amazingly the oilstones benefited from my education with water stones.

Now both are used in my shop even on warm days.

jtk

[Matthew N. Masail]

Oilstones didn't work for me until after learning how to sharpen on water stones. For many years my sharpening efforts were frustrating. Water stones actually worked. For a few years after that my oilstones did not get used. Then one day it was too cold in the shop to sharpen with water stones so the oilstones were given another chance. Amazingly the oilstones benefited from my education with water stones.

Now both are used in my shop even on warm days.

jtk

Yeah, exactly the same here. unless someone had direct one on one mentoring, water stones are me recommendation. I also like having both so no problem getting oil stones later on.