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Thread: Upgrading my door process.

  1. #1

    Upgrading my door process.

    I've been on a mission this year to make doors faster, better, and more consistent. For years my manufacturing of doors has relied on two shapers and a mix match of insert cutters of different diameters, offsets, tongue sizes, and heights, plus a brazed straight cutter. It worked. Although very not very consistently, and very slowly. Early on I adopted using an outboard fence for sizing sticking, (also my faceframe stock), it eliminated snipe on the ends, and produced a part that wasn't relying on accurate ripping to get the correct size part. This process has gone through a few variations, from moving a fence that was clamped down for every size. To a fixed fence and a series of spacers made from Baltic Birch. The latter is what I'm still doing at the moment. The plan is to attach a pair of linear bearings and rods to the side of my main shaper and have a fence with a digital read out that can be dialed in quickly. That will help speed things up dramatically, and take out the environmental component of the plywood not beings exactly what it is supposed to be due to temperature and humidity changes.

    With two shapers making doors one shaper remained set up as a coper at all times, the other did the rest of the duties. Panel raising, sticking, sizing of sticking, and sizing of face frame stock. As well as anything else that needed to be run through the shaper. Both are light duty Powermatic Model 27 shapers and not really up to the duty cycle of cabinet shop work.

    The first thing I did this year for upgrading my door setup was I found a SAC TS120 8-1/2hp shaper with a 1" spindle that from the get go I wanted to setup as a panel raiser. I got it cheap on an auction. I think with the winning bid, buyers premium, fuel, paying a Millwright to load it in my pickup, and putting a new four wheel Steff power feed on it I've got about $2700 into it. I had a three wing LRH insert head that is in it currently. (I've got a cousin who has a four wing insert panel raiser he had custom made that I really want to try in the SAC. Slow the spindle speed down and that thing should leave glass behind with no burning.) Even though I don't do a ton of raised panel stuff, tearing down the main shaper to setup for panel raising was a massive pain in the rear. Especially when a door was made incorrectly and it had to be done a few times in a job. Plus a five horsepower shaper is really borderline on power doing a full pass scoop in harder material. I also wanted to have a continuous fence instead of having a bearing for the panel to ride on. I think the added support helps with tear out, plus there's no "bumps" in the feeding of panels, they just truck on through smoothly. I'm very pleased with the setup so far even though it's probably only ran about 30 panels through it this year.

    Through this website I was contacted by another member who had a SCMi T130N shaper for sale in absolutely mint condition that I purchased to replace the 27S that was my main shaper. Having a height readout, the ability to stack three cutters on the spindle, and for all intensive purposes zero runout improved everything. The quality of cut is substantially better. The fit of the cope to the stick is phenomenal, and when sizing face frame material I was getting a shiny smooth cut. I was doing all of my straight cuts with the shaper in reverse and doing a climb cut for essentially zero tear out with both this shaper and the Powermatic, but the results from the SCMi are outstanding. Sanding up stuff with a DA sander on the straight cuts is now effortless. This shaper also received a Steff 4 wheel power feeder.

    So now I have the SCMi doing sticking, sizing face frame stock, and doing some miscellaneous small mouldings. The SAC does panel raising, a Powermatic Model 27 doing the coping for ogee and quarter round profiles, and a Powermatic Model 27S that is currently setup for coping shaker style doors.

    This is the whole reason for this post. (and my bragging a bit)






    In there is left and right cope heads for quarter round, and ogee. A single cope head for shaker style. Sticking cutters for quarter round, ogee, and shaker. And in the second picture, a four wing, opposite shear, carbide insert straight cutter. Almost $7k in heads and extra knives. This is what is going to drastically improve everything across the board. The door specific heads are all the same diameter, all the some offset, all the same minor diameter, all the same tongue. The two Powermatic shapers for the time being will be setup as copers. When a profile change needs to happen on the copers, I just swap heads and make no changes to spindle height or fence position. Having left and right copes eliminates the need for a coped backer stick and the hassles that accompany that. Assuming I won't have more than two different sticking profiles in one job, I'll load the needed profiles and the straight cutter into the SCMi and to change profiles or go to the straight cutter I will just raise and lower the spindle to a number on the readout.

    I'm pretty amped up for my next job to start.

    The next step will be dumping the Powermatic shapers, or putting them into some extremely light duty job. I'd like to have separate shapers setup for each coping profile at some point, but that is a ways down the road. I would also like to get something like the Unique double end automatic coper as well, but you still have to have shapers setup for the rails that are too long to fit in between the spindles of the Unique. Like large paneled end rails.

  2. #2
    Oh, and JR, they are from Dimension in Tooling

  3. #3
    Beautiful! Since you're posting pictures, can we see a finished product or two, and possibly that TS120 while you're at it?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Will Boulware View Post
    Beautiful! Since you're posting pictures, can we see a finished product or two, and possibly that TS120 while you're at it?

    Here's the TS120 when I picked her up. It sat for a while in way the heck up north, northern Minnesota. Like dang near Canada North. I'm thinking the place it was at wasn't heated over the winter, when the warm weather came that 1500# chunk of steel took a while to warm up, so it rusted. A lot!



    Here it is in a usable state. Though this may have been before I actually had used it. Doesn't look like it's wired in this picture




    Finished product









    I haven't used the new cutters yet. Probably next week when we get rolling on the next job.

  5. #5
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    Your doing beautiful work Martin, and looks like you've made a big leap forward in terms of door production. Next move a digital "class" level shaped like SCMI or Martin? If love to see a back fence that attaches to both sides of the shaper table, has DRO's for depth adjustment, and a precise micro adjustable mechanism. Something after market, like the sort of thing on a Bridgeport for table positions in the XY axis.
    "A good miter set up is like yoga pants: it makes everyone's butts look good." Prashun Patel

  6. #6
    Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor!! Beautiful work, sir!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Quinn View Post
    Your doing beautiful work Martin, and looks like you've made a big leap forward in terms of door production. Next move a digital "class" level shaped like SCMI or Martin? If love to see a back fence that attaches to both sides of the shaper table, has DRO's for depth adjustment, and a precise micro adjustable mechanism. Something after market, like the sort of thing on a Bridgeport for table positions in the XY axis.

    Thanks Peter, I've worked myself into a very nice niche. Higher end stuff, but not the ridiculous big projects with a half million cabinet bill, but I'm not working for poor people like myself either.

    I don't see myself getting a smart shaper ever. Next step in door sticking and face frame stock would be a moulder. Coping is best done in either an automatic coper like the one Unique sells for $35k, or individual shapers dedicated to their task in my opinion. I would like someone to come out with a digital fence with a key pad like a Tigerstop though for my current setup. Punch in what you want and keep running material.

    This will appease this bottleneck for a bit, next major tool purchase is a CNC dovetailer, then a nesting CNC for cutting out box work and machining. Other than the new shop which is almost 9k sq/ft that I need to build.

  8. #8
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    Might fine looking Kitchens,looks like it's stright out of Americas finest kitchens Magazine.
    I didn't realize tooling for shapers were that expensive.Now I don't feel so bad about spending a couple hundred dollars on a Dovetail Chisel.Thanks for sharing your work Martin.

  9. #9
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    Looks like your headed in the right direction.I think you are a perfect candidate for a modern shaper like a Martin. I was in your shoes s while back trying to get efficient with shaper work. Once I got my Martin, I never looked back,it was a big relief getting rid of all the clutter.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Max Neu View Post
    Looks like your headed in the right direction.I think you are a perfect candidate for a modern shaper like a Martin. I was in your shoes s while back trying to get efficient with shaper work. Once I got my Martin, I never looked back,it was a big relief getting rid of all the clutter.

    The problem for me is having one shaper setup to do something means only one person can do that task. I can have three people cranking parts if need be with the setup I've got now. Square footage is cheap. Smart shapers are awesome, but for what I do, I don't think they make sense is pretty much the same pieces over and over again.

  11. #11
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    Most shops just get into the Weaver shapers for doors. Its pretty much said and done. The system easily pays for itself...

  12. #12
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    Looks good Martin! (I was going to ask who made them.) Good tooling goes a long way, and the finish off of the inserts is great.

    One thing to keep in mind about Unique is that their spindles aren't the greatest unless you are going for the high end electrospindles. I would be tempted to find a couple of linear guided coping clamps to put on the Powermatics, first. I've seen people use the Unique cope unit on a better shaper, like a T40 MiniMax. Or keep an eye out on eBay for copecrafters and adapt them onto a linear guide.
    JR

  13. #13
    I've got a pair of the Reliable cope clamps. They're okay.

    The unit I priced out I think had hsk spindles and the quick change turrets. The auto feed and safety aspect of that machine is intriguing. I had some sticker shock, but $35k doesn't seem that out of line if you think about it for a bit.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.R. Rutter View Post

    One thing to keep in mind about Unique is that their spindles aren't the greatest unless you are going for the high end electrospindles. .
    JR, could you elaborate just a bit on this? Is the spindle machining poor? Or cheap bearings? Or???
    Martin, those are a huge step forward in machine quality from the PM. I started with a PM 27 as well, and made it do many things it wasn't built for, before I knew what I was using and what I should be looking for!
    The gent at the store assured me he was selling me an " Industrial" shaper, and I thought it was until a friend bought an old cast iron Greenlee shaper that the table weighed more than my whole PM shaper!!
    I found that I was running a 4" diameter x 4" tall steel corrugated head on my PM, and it was taller than my bearing spacing on the PM! Of course that is what the gent told me the machine was capable of.
    I then moved into an SAC like yours but with a sliding table, and from there, into the Martins. I do have about a half dozen of the old cast iron US shapers that I bought specifically to set up like you have to speed the mundane door production when needed, but I am afraid that I probably will never do so at this point, because they take up space, they need dust collection, and my setup times are so minimal, fast, and repeatable with what I have now that the sacrifices aren't worth the cost.
    Nice work as well!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter gagliardi View Post
    JR, could you elaborate just a bit on this? Is the spindle machining poor? Or cheap bearings? Or???
    More that the spindles are closer to the PM27 than the SAC and SCM shapers. Smaller quill assemblies and bearings. Just pointing out that some of the industry people I have spoken to about machines like the Voorwood and Unique are not impressed with the spindles compared to heavier shapers. The joke is: "That's why they have to add the sanding heads." I know that the cope machine is not a shape/sand, but just wanted to mention the spindle comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    I've got a pair of the Reliable cope clamps. They're okay.

    The unit I priced out I think had hsk spindles and the quick change turrets. The auto feed and safety aspect of that machine is intriguing. I had some sticker shock, but $35k doesn't seem that out of line if you think about it for a bit.
    I like the Ritter TESA clamp with individual clamp cylinders as opposed to the bar, plus the side pressure clamp. It might be worthwhile to add an inexpensive side clamp to the Reliable clamps. What do you use for guides? Miter bar or?

    Unique has definitely gotten better with their latest machinery using the router type spindles.
    JR

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