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Thread: Will hide glue alone bear weight of mother and child?

  1. #1
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    Will hide glue alone bear weight of mother and child?

    image.jpg image.jpg

    Hello. Some advice please...

    I'm a new daddy, and mommy wanted an additional hand rail opposite an existing banster to make trips up and down the stairs safer, so I'm adding them. Before, since this is a divided one-story stair, it was required to switch baby from one hand to the other midway up or down the stair. Now there is a handrail on either side.

    In the above picture please note the small piece off the 45 degree miter "terminating" into the newell. (It is only taped on for the purpose of this photograph.) Ultimately, this peice will transition to the newell artfully, but that will require a purchase of a quality rasp when the budget permits.

    In the meantime, I want to glue the miter with hide glue and use no finishing nails. (The piece will float unglued at the newell. Note the handrail is nice and rigid at this point.) The reason is obvious: I want to be able to reverse the glue bond to finish out the project properly at a later time, perhaps after a couple years.

    My question is, will hide glue hold weight safely without nails? Titebond liquid hide glue says it is not intended for structural purposes. Will mommy and baby be safe puting weight on this? Any advice appreciated.
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  2. #2
    Hide glue is good stuff, will make a glue joint as strong as any if you use high wt. hot hide glue but I would not trust an end grain to end grain glue joint to just glue, any glue hide or otherwise. The joint needs a mechanical lock such as a pinned or draw bored mortise and tenon.

    ken

  3. #3
    I would never trust any butt joint, esp. one in end grain to any adhesive alone.

    Add a mechanical lock, dowel, mortise and tenon, a key, something.

    They make mechanical fasteners which are intended for joining stair handrails — they go in from underneath, w/ a slot and a pair of holes — you can then tighten them w/ wrenches.

    A search online or visit to a good hardware store should yield several options. I’d be surprised if Lee Valley didn’t carry them.

  4. #4
    I agree. I wouldn't trust that joint to glue alone. Get the hardware William suggests. You don't want that joint to fail on the day she needs that rail to keep from falling.

  5. #5
    I recommend making another post and having a tenon from the rail go into an mortise in the post. A traditional stair would have a short piece of rail tenoned into both posts for stability.

  6. #6
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    Glue alone will not be strong enough to offer a secure joint in this application. This is entirely too important an application to do anything less than make that joint as strong as possible.
    Last edited by george wilson; 10-05-2015 at 10:52 AM.

  7. #7
    Kurtis, I have seen this done using a 'gooseneck' transition, so that the lower segment of rail lands on the flat section of the existing newel post (saves adding 2nd newel post). Result is somewhat more elegant that 2 posts, but a gooseneck typically involves considerable end-grain to end-grain transitions, so strength may be compromised (especially if relying on glue only).

    You might look at this http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2011/...gent-handrail/ ?? It is interesting look at traditional 'wreath' style (wrap-around) hand rail layout and construction. Example is 90 degree transition, but I think you could extrapolate to the 180 degrees that you need.

  8. #8
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    I'm so glad I asked this question here. This is exactly what I needed to know. Thanks all who have responded! Much appreciated.

    It's unanimous then! Hide glue alone is out. I'll be looking into a hidden mechanical fastener for this temporary joint.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken hatch View Post
    ...I would not trust an end grain to end grain glue joint to just glue, any glue hide or otherwise. The joint needs a mechanical lock such as a pinned or draw bored mortise and tenon.

    ken
    This was helpful, thanks!

  10. #10
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    I would consider drilling a hole trough the two pieces and driving a glue coated hardwood dowel into the hole to lock it in place.
    I would drill perpendicular to the mitered pieces and it would be through the beefy part of the miter. A sharp narrow sharp chisel could smooth the visible faces.
    I would make the dowel out of oak.
    Last edited by lowell holmes; 10-05-2015 at 1:48 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Adams View Post
    They make mechanical fasteners which are intended for joining stair handrails — they go in from underneath, w/ a slot and a pair of holes — you can then tighten them w/ wrenches.

    A search online or visit to a good hardware store should yield several options. I’d be surprised if Lee Valley didn’t carry them.
    I imagine it's still important to glue with these mechanical fasteners? If so, will the joint still disassemble with relative ease when the hide glue is unbonded?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly View Post
    I agree. I wouldn't trust that joint to glue alone. Get the hardware William suggests. You don't want that joint to fail on the day she needs that rail to keep from falling.
    Excellent, thanks.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Glue alone will not be strong enough to offer a secure joint in this application. This is entirely too important an application to do anything less than make that joint as strong as possible.
    Okay, good stuff. Thanks!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    I recommend making another post and having a tenon from the rail go into an mortise in the post. A traditional stair would have a short piece of rail tenoned into both posts for stability.
    I'd already considered another newell post as an option but quickly chose another route for both asthetic and structural reasons, i.e., there is nowhere to put it.

    This as a wall handrail and not a banister rail and had ruled out a need for a permanent joint into the newell but thanks to your post I've reconsidered. My thinking had been it's just another mitered return terminating flush and unattached to a wall (as seen in the picture of the top flight rail included below), with the only difference being in this case instead of terminating at the wall it terminates at the the newell. But, the fact is, the mitered return would be longer than the others and would invite use and thus would need to bear more weight.

    So, the permanent solution in a couple years is to tie it into the newell post with joinery. The temporary solution is there is no temporary solution. I will leave off the mitered piece. I wish I hadn't cut that miter. (Sigh.)

    Thanks again!

    I've included a picture of it's entire length to show it is really just a glorified wall handrail. It has more brackets than needed with three and is very stiff and sturdy at the top. There is no flex when I put weight and strength on it. I wanted to leave the newell alone in case the next owners want to get rid of the added handrails without substantial damage to the newell. But as mentioned, I've reconsidered this for the permanent solution.

    image.jpg
    Bottom flight handrail


    image.jpg
    Top flight handrail

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Adams View Post
    They make mechanical fasteners which are intended for joining stair handrails — they go in from underneath, w/ a slot and a pair of holes — you can then tighten them w/ wrenches.

    A search online or visit to a good hardware store should yield several options. I’d be surprised if Lee Valley didn’t carry them.
    Zipbolt Railing connectors: http://zipbolt.com.au/

    Yes Lee Valley carries some of them, but only the one size/shape (nominally under "bed hardware" which is how I found them): http://www.leevalley.com/US/hardware...842,43730&ap=1

    Amazon.com has a wider selection as do some other online shops...

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