I Need Help Fixing a Problem With How to Attach Breadboards to My Table Top

[Jim Dwight]

Anthony,

Depth is just one way to get glue area and support area. Dowels would not be long in the direction of the width of the table top. So you can compensate by making them deeper. Another factor is the leverage of the breadboard end. 6.75 inches is wide. When somebody leans on the breadboard end getting up from the table, it will pry at the joint we are talking about. Longer tenons or dowels would resist that better than a little stub 1/2 inch tenon. The middle can be glued but on the ends, you have to just depend on the physical connection. Another joint consideration is just alignment on the surface. That will be better with even a stub tenon than with a dowel - unless alignment is great and you use a bunch. Those providing input are guessing what you need based upon their experience.

It is also possible to combine a stub tenon with dowels. I did that on some interior doors once. I didn't love the result but the doors worked. On subsequent doors I made the tenon a bit longer and deleted the dowels.

If you cut a groove for a stub tenon it will also help to align a subsequent deeper slot or dowel holes.

[Pat Barry]

Sure, you can do that. But make the spline long grain, and make the breadboard the fixed connection to the tongue, since the grain in the spline and breadboard will be running the same direction.

I think this is opposite the way it should be done. The splines need to be attached to the table top and slide in the breadboard (except of course at the center) and the grain needs to be oriented along the length of the table top, not along the length of the breadboard - think of the spline as a Domino or the milled features of the top as suggested by Glen and others

[Anthony Brown]

Thanks guys. A small update. I have been running a few tests and I definitely feel a bit more comfortable using dowels, but I am not ruling out tenons yet. I have a question about the dowels. I have a 3/4" spade bit that I am using to drill my test holes 3" deep. When I insert the 3/4" dowels into the holes, they don't fit "tightly". In other words there is an ever so slight bit of play in there, and I don't have to hammer the dowels into place. Is this normal? I'm thinking when I go to attach the breadboard that it will just slide on and I won't have to exert much effort or hammer it on like I have seen others do. I'm thinking this may be a bad thing. I know on the table side that glue will make this a non-issue, but for the breadboard parts that do not get glued, will this be an issue?

I appreciate all of you guys help with getting me through this project. I'm honestly getting to the point where I just want to glue the blasted thing up like I originally planned, and if it cracks, splits, or separates, oh well. I know that's not right, but I'm just having a tough time trying to choose a direction that won't lead to me starting all over because I made a mistake that can't be fixed.

[Brian Holcombe]

A well built dining table is not a simple project, I would suggest you slow whatever timeframe you have set out and take this project at a moderate pace. You are doing your research, that is good, and while you may not need to find the ideal method in every approach, taking some time to do this correctly will save many headaches in the future.

You can make a full width floating tenon that from 4/4 material that is thicknessed to 1/3 of the table's thickness. If you run the grain the same direction as the table top than you can glue it into a receiving groove in the table, then build the breadboard ends in the same fashion that Ken illustrates.

[Anthony Brown]

A well built dining table is not a simple project, I would suggest you slow whatever timeframe you have set out and take this project at a moderate pace. You are doing your research, that is good, and while you may not need to find the ideal method in every approach, taking some time to do this correctly will save many headaches in the future.

You can make a full width floating tenon that from 4/4 material that is thicknessed to 1/3 of the table's thickness. If you run the grain the same direction as the table top than you can glue it into a receiving groove in the table, then build the breadboard ends in the same fashion that Ken illustrates.

Yeah, my timeframe is going to have to slow down for sure. I probably should give everyone a little background on why I have been hesitant to go down the routing/tenon/spline path. Basically, while I do have a routing table, it isn't a great one, as it is small, lightweight and basically moves when it is running. It also has a metal feeder tray (which your material rests on) that bent and had to be bent back into place. I'm hesitant to put material on that bent tray, because it is still a bit off, and that almost certainly will cause any cuts to be off. I have already bought a few tools for this project, but I can't go overboard, so I am just trying to work with what I have.

I do have a plunge router and it does ok, but it seems to skip, jump, and struggle when I go deeper into wood, even when I make passes.

I didn't anticipate having to use any of these tools on this project, so that is why I am a bit unprepared. I thought this was basically glue-up city, only to find out (through happenstance searching) that I was wrong.

Here are some links to some things that I have built in the past:

http://www.anthonybrowncreative.com/personal-projects

These were smaller projects and the tools that I currently have worked well for these types of projects. I do have a tiny bit of woodworking skills, but nothing even approaching the level that people in this thread do. Also, the shear size and weight of this table changes the ballgame completely when it comes to making changes on the fly.

[Andrew Hughes]

I don't think you need to go so deep.Hickory is some pretty tough stuff.I bet you couldn't break off a 3/4 inch dowel with one inch embedment.I just finshed the last og my hickory stash.and ready for something soft and frendly. Good luck.

[Anthony Brown]

I don't think you need to go so deep.Hickory is some pretty tough stuff.I bet you couldn't break off a 3/4 inch dowel with one inch embedment.I just finshed the last og my hickory stash.and ready for something soft and frendly. Good luck.

Yeah, Hickory is no joke. It is every bit the 1880 the Janka hardness scale says it is. My biggest worry is breaking off the Oak dowels by going too short on the embedment. I figured that the Hickory being heavier would mean I needed a longer dowel because it was more prone to stress/snap the dowel, but it sounds like you are saying the opposite?

[Andrew Hughes]

Just make nice holes you'll be fine.Ditch the spade bit.practice on some scrap first.good luck

[Anthony Brown]

Just make nice holes you'll be fine.Ditch the spade bit.practice on some scrap first.good luck

Thanks. If I don't use the spade bit, what do you suggest for the holes then?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Thanks. If I don't use the spade bit, what do you suggest for the holes then?

Brad-point bit if going for more than 2.25"; Forstner bit will only get you to about 2.25" (depending on brand) but leaves a very clean hole.

Twist drill would do in a $$-pinch, but drill smaller pilot holes to keep it from wandering (this is only marginally better than spade bits IMHO)

[Anthony Brown]

Thanks guys. I will pick up a 3/4" Forstner bit today and get some practice in.

[Rick Johnston]

Kent, with your doweling through the tenons where you going all the way through the BB? or just doing a peg from the bottom of the BB so it was in keeping with the concealment of the connection just like on the end of the BB? Rick

[Anthony Brown]

Quick question. I am still going to do some tests with my 3/4" Forstner bit, but I am going to be using a hand drill. From what I have read about these bits is that they are extremely hard to use with a hand drill if you are going deeper than 1/4" - 1/2". Is this the case? I do not have a drill press and having one wouldn't help me for the table portion of this anyway, only the breadboard ends.

[Pat Barry]

The problem I have had with Forstner bits is clearing chips. I think the solution is to frequently raise the bit out of the work and allow the chips to clear. Then reinsert and drill - rinse and repeat. The drill press makes this all very simple as its fixtured so that you hit the hole with each subsequent drill insertion right on. Using a hand drill you can do it just needs more TLC

[Jim Dwight]

getting a straight hole parallel with the top with a hand drill won't be easy. I prefer a bit like this:

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?...llow&cId=PDIO1

It might be too aggressive in feeding itself in hickory but the longer diameter at the hole size will help a lot with alignment. A Forstner bit may be a little better than a spade bit in staying aligned but the part that is hole diameter is only about 1/2 inch. This sort of bit is hole diameter deeper than the holes you are trying to make. A regular twist bit would be easier to control, however, and also is the full hole diameter for an extended length.