Space needed for full size slider...

[David Zaret]

precisely. you can't build complex face frames on a panel saw.

[ian maybury]

I guess putting it in different language - a format sliding table model is still pretty much a do-everything sawing machine. A vertical panel saw is perhas a single purpose machine...

[Max Neu]

By far the most versatile machine in my shop,I couldn't imagine not having it.It is also really efficient at processing solid wood panels for raised panel doors.We glue up big sections (up to 10') of panels,and cut them to size on the slider.It saves alot of time and clamps vs. gluing up individual panels.There is a long list of things we do on the slider other than cut square and rectangle pcs. of sheet goods.

[Jim Andrew]

When I set up my shop, I wanted to be able to rip a 16' board. So I set the back side of the saw 16' from the wall. Now I have a small slider, 79x48 on one end of the shop and the unisaw pointed the opposite way, and have the same capacity on each. You do not need as big an outfeed table with the slider, so that can relieve some stress on the size. I find with the smaller slider, it takes about the same space as a cabinet saw. Before I bought mine, I visited a shop where they have a full size SCMI slider, and watched them work for a while to get an idea of how to work with the machine. The smaller saw is not as good on full length rips, but works just as well for crosscutting. If you need a full rip on a 8' sheet, just rip between fence and blade, then do your crosscuts with the slider. I like using my slider to straight line solid boards, but am limited to 78" long boards.

[Martin Wasner]

I use a 10' slider,I got it for the versatility.With a slider,you can cut angles,bevels,scoring blade,straight edge lumber,cut veneer,etc.

Panel saws typically don't need a scoring blade, you score material with the main blade doing a climb cut as you bring the head up to do a through cut. Some composite panels require a scoring blade, and it's an option.
Angles are a cakewalk.
I can't do bevel cuts.
I've straight lined lumber on the panel saw, though it was far from ideal.
I can rip 15', and I've only had to do that a handful of times in my career, it's been a life saver when I have had to.
I haven't cut veneer with one, though I've cut plenty of laminate with one

If I could have just one saw, I'd probably have a slider, but I still hate loading sheet stock onto one without the gantry lift, and I've got three other saws to choose from in the shop. Plus you're limited to one piece at a time whereas with a panel saw I can do a couple pieces of 3/4" at a time or three pieces of 1/2", or six pieces of 1/4" at a crack. Bulk cutting parts at once is a huge time saver.

[Kevin Nathanson]

The other big space eater is the need for access around these machines to load 8x4 sheets or whatever - especially if you work alone. It's best to think through carefully and exactly the mechanics of the various handling tasks. If nothing else you need to be able to conveniently nip around the saw (on the rip side?) to remove cut pieces from the outfeed side - the table on a format saw is wide enough front to back that it's not always safe or even possible to reach over from the infeed side...

This is important to remember! I am fortunate enough to have a very large shop area (~1,400sq.ft.) and every once in awhile I still manage to set up a sheet for cutting that ends up pinning me in a space where I have to do some gymnastics—and it is NOT pretty to watch a 55 year old 250lb troll do gymnastics!—in order to remove the piece after cutting it.

As far as your 'go/no-go' decision on the slider vs. other classes of equipment; if you can even consider something like a Martin, you will be so horribly disappointed with a significantly lesser saw that I encourage you to get the good one, especially given the other stuff you have. There will be some 'haters' with a different opinion—your $2,500 Nordfab expenditure has put you firmly on their list—but you are the one that will benefit from using that quality equipment all the time, and it makes a huge difference.

If you post your general location, there is probably someone reading this near you that you could visit to understand the real world space requirements needed.

K

P.S. I only spent $2k on my Nordfab, but I found about half of it used! ;-)

[Patrick Walsh]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

I think the reality is if i am to aquire a slider while in the space i now work out of "my basemnt" i will be kinda jamming the machine into place. This leaves me to consider that i will not be able to use the saw to its full capacity. I also will not be able to get that Martin TS75 into my shop or even Felders top of the line machines. I would be limited to the Felder KF700S or the new K540S.

Both machines would suit my needs just fine and i am sure i would be very very excited to have either in my shop. On the other hand if i had the space i would hands down purchase a used Martin or a Format4 Kapa. The facts are for the foreseeable future the space i have is the space i have. I will move in 5-10 years and when i do i will be sure i allot a seprate building for my shop to the tune of 2K sq ft a insulated and heated barn or the such.

Being that the case im inclined to just purchase the KF 700S and be happy i dropped only 20K with accessories on what is really two machines to what would amount to closer to 30K for a Format4 or used Martin. On the other hand i am a purchase exactly what you want the first time kinda guy even if you gotta wait longer than you would like.

Idk either way any of the above machines are a year of saving for me without living like a bum or foregoing contrabutions to my 401k and the such. Point being i have time to think about it. On the other hand if i ruled a slider out i could focus my saving efforts on other machines such as a wide belt sander, second band saw or even purchase the Felder FB 250 mortiser by the new year.

[Max Neu]

Patrick
If I was in your situation, I would hold off on buying a slider until you move, then get a good one, like a Martin or Altendorf.You could get a track saw to tie you over in the time being. I wouldn't want to deal with moving a big slider when the time comes to move. Remember, with a slider, you still need a table saw and feeder for ripping hardwood,even though the slider is versatile, you still need room for other saws.

[Patrick Walsh]

I have a ICS SawStop.

I just want the slider. Mostly as i work with rough lumber and the ease of putting a straight edge on wood without breaking out the track saw would be sweet.

Plus for work purposes i do build cabinets and built ins from time to time. It sure wouldn't stink to have a slider for that task either. The spindle shaper combo machine is real attractive and hence Felder.

Do you really think Altendorf and Martin are really that superior to High end Felder machine or Format4?

I cant help but kinda agree that waiting cant hurt. Plus who knows what these saws will be like in 5 more years

[Max Neu]

Do I think the German machines are superior to high end Felders? YES!!
If you are a professional and depend on your machinery everyday,they are well worth the investment. If you are a hobbiest,I would say they are overkill.

[peter gagliardi]

I know of a colleague who bought the Format saw for his production shop, he is a whole lot less than thrilled with it. There is a very good reason Altendorf and Martin are top pics in pro shops. Almost any saw will work, the difference is in the fact that the better the saw the less fussing and fiddling, to keep it in adjustment, and wearing out of cheaper parts. Fit and finish are better, longevity is better, etc....
Put simply, you would be hard pressed to find an Altendorf or Martin user who wishes they had bought a Felder or Format.
The opposite though is more likely.
A casual user may not ever know, or be able to pick up on the subtle, and even not so subtle differences in the different classes of saw.
And honestly not all those differences will translate to a better end product......

[Patrick Walsh]

This is all good stuff for me to hear and consider.

FYI I'm in Natick Mass 20 west of Boston.

Although i will and do use my machines for work purposes chances are they will never be used in a production environment.

Still though i could easily see spoiling myself.

TBH the Felder AD941 i just took delivery of is as nice a machine as i could ever really need. And yes it is clear the difference in quality between it and a Martin T54. Would I kick the T54 out bed not a chance!

what is the going market price for a 5-10 year old Martin or Altendorf saw...

[Keith Weber]

My shop is only 11' 7" wide (48' long), but I squeezed an Altendorf F45 in there. I did have to do some modifications to the saw, however, to pull it off. I wanted 97" from the blade to the left wall, so that I could skim cut the end of a 4'x8' sheet. That left me with 42" from the blade to the right wall, a crosscut clearance of 36" to clear the vertical overarm blade guard post, and 27-1/2" using the rip fence. Normally, the 27.5" rip capability to the right of the blade would be a problem, but with a slider, I can just use a parallel jig on the other side of the blade to rip any width I want. My only restriction is that I can't crosscut a single 4x8 sheet into two 4x4 sheets because of the proximity of the right wall. I mentioned this to a buddy, who added that there isn't a saw made that can cut two 4x4s out a single 4x8. Obviously, he was referring to the loss of the kerf width, and I got a chuckle out of his comment.

So, I guess you could say if there's a will, there's a way.

Regarding Altendorf prices... You'd probably be hard pressed to find a 5-10 year old F45 for under $10K. I've seen them as high as $22K. It all depends on condition, features and accessories, but also who's selling them. Machinery dealers love to control the market on these and inflate the prices. You'll save a lot if you can find a private sale, or grab one at an auction.

[ian maybury]

Hi Keith. There's always some guy - but it's possible to halve a full 8x4 sheet on a Hammer K3 Perform with 8ft slider even though there is only around 32in of nominal rip capacity. (the layout is standard format saw similar to the current K4) There's nothing special about the saw.

Your wall may be a show stopper depending on the positioning of your saw - unless you can move it around which isn't a preferred option due to the risk of disturbing the set up. 97in to the LHS would leave 42in to the wall on your RHS which isn't quite enough. It'd still work with the saw where it is if you could afford to first cross cut/clip 3- 4in off the end of the sheet on your slider side before halving it.

For anybody else with a bit more room the trick is just to lift off the rip fence, clamp the sheet to the slider and let it overhang the rip table. Done carefully the Incra TS LS fence fitted on my machine (luckily) drops back on in alignment as should a standard rip fence - no need for re-setting the toe out afterwards. This one reason why not having a full 4ft rip capacity isn't necessarily a show stopper.

It's not necessary to use the full size cross cut fence support frame when doing this, although it certainly helps with squaring stuff up - the board can be supported on the slider mounted arms for the parallel fence (also with some overhang) and aligned using the short fence on the mitre gauge at the infeed end. Double checking alignment if needed by aligning a marked cut line parallel to the slider T slot or RH edge.

My shop is very small too, although wide enough that while movement around the saw gets a bit restricted at times this method is possible. It isn't my favourite job, mostly because loading the full sheet is awkward done single handed in a tight space. The key is that even though the sheet overhangs to both sides there's enough supporting length in the parallel bar arms, the rip table and to the outfeed/downstream side of the saw spindle that the halves are not even close to tipping off after cutting...

[Keith Weber]

Hi Ian,

I think my friend's comment might have slipped by you. :-)

He was absolutely correct about no saw being able to get two 4'x4's out of a 4'x8' because of the width of the saw blade. You end up with one 48"x48", and one 48"x47-7/8". Lots of saws can crosscut a 4x8 in half, though -- it just cannot produce two true 4x4s out of a 4x8.