Crack in bout of #5

[Joe Beaulieu]

Let me know if I am over-stepping my welcome. This is my third post in as many days. I am getting back into WW and I have a bunch of questions, and you folks have been a great resource . Much appreciated!

I have a flea market special #5 Bailey Smoother. It actually came with a very nice Hock blade, and I think that blinded me to a crack on the bout. It is not immediately noticeable, but it does run down from the top of the bout, from about 11:00 to almost the center. All in all it is about an inch and a quarter long. Otherwise the plane is very workable. I have tried bending the plane to see if it spreads out; I can't move it.

is this a death knell? I only spent $25 on it and got a couple of other plane blades in the mix, so I am not particularly upset about this, except it means I don't have a workable #5. Is the crack a functional problem? Is there a compound I can use to fill the crack? What other steps should I take to fix it, or should I salvage it for parts and hope for another flea market find?

Thanks folks! I very much appreciate the help!

BTW - what qualifies one as a "Galoot"? Is there a membership card? A club song? A local chapter?

Joe

[Jim Ritter]

On the down side you bought a Hock blade for $25 that alone is not bad. On the plus side, sharpen the blade and put the plane to work. It might become your favorite. Not everything has to be perfect. If it doesn't flex and it holds the blade you're good. There might be other problems with the plane that are for more damning, like a twisted sole.
Jim

[Robert Engel]

Joe,

I would start by checking the sole for flatness. Several ways to do this. I use self adhesive sandpaper on my TS top. Start with 80 grit.
If the scratch pattern indicates the sole is reasonably flat, then sharpen up the blade and see what it does.

There are alot of nuances with planes you won't know till you start using them. Even a plane that appears in perfect shape can have its own signature idosycrasies. This is one of the issues in picking up these old planes. You don't know how they were treated. That, plus the Stanleys made after 1950 or so really are inferior compared to the early models.

Check out supertools.com or hyperkitten.com to find all you want to know about these planes. I would date the plane you have first and decide whether its even worth pursuing a repair.

Worst case, stick a cambered blade in it and use it as a long scrub plane.

PS a picture goes a long way.

[Jim Koepke]

If the plane works well, use it.

I have a couple of dogs that I do not feel should be sold to an unsuspecting buyer. Depending on the plane, you likely have more value than what was paid in the blade and wooden handles.

#5s are a very common item. I picked up a #5 base with a few parts for $4 in a pawn shop. It is now a great user with a mechanical problem or two.

JB Weld can be used with success on some cracks. Others may have a different favorite metal repair methods.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

What's a bout?

[Stew Hagerty]

What's a bout?

+1 What's a bout?

[Jim Koepke]

What's a bout?

That kind of piqued my curiosity, but decided it didn't matter much. My guess is it is the top of the "Bailey bulge" around the mouth area of the plane.

jtk

[Stew Hagerty]

That kind of piqued my curiosity, but decided it didn't matter much. My guess is it is the top of the "Bailey bulge" around the mouth area of the plane.

jtk

You may be right Jim, but what a "bout" is makes a big difference as to the strength of the plane.

Joe Beaulieu, a #5 isn't a smoothing plane so a small, non-structural crack should not pose a problem. It should have a cambered blade and be used for rough work primarily cross grain such as when flattening a board. I'd pay $25 for a mildly cracked #5 with a Hock blade every single time.

[Jim Koepke]

I'd pay $25 for a mildly cracked #5 with a Hock blade every single time.

Yes, one way to look at this is he got a deal on a Hock blade with some extra parts thrown in.

jtk

[Brice Rogers]

Replying to the original poster, I don't know where the "bout" is located. But if it is part of the frame, you should be able to easily silver solder/braze it. If the crack is a hairline, when you get to the right temperature, it will draw or suck in the silver solder. Get the silver solder and flux from your local welding store. Read the directions. You'll probably need map gas as it may be hard to heat up to the right temperature with propane. Alternatively, if you have access to a kiln you could pre-flux, place the wire of SS over the crack and just heat it up until the SS flows. Look for something with a moderate about of silver - - like around 40-55 % silver.

It is surprisingly strong. I use it in place of steel welding for some applications. But it requires a pretty tight fit and won't fill gaps.

[Frank Drew]

Given his name, I thought Joe was maybe posting from French Canada (or even France) because bout, in French, means end, extremity, or even tip.

By the way, welcome to the board, Joe; a #5 is usually called a jack plane.

[Joe Beaulieu]

Hey guys,

I may be mixing my disciplines - sorry. I am a long time , but in the guitar world a bout is the curved shoulder on a guitar or other musical instrument. For this plane issue I called the bout the side piece that enclosed the frog - its similarly shaped and I thought it was a common phrase. I looked it up and it is only associated with musical instruments. Sorry. I would have posted a pic but I was in bed and the thought crossed my mind, so I sent the post. It was Oh - I wanted to ask about this... I will get pics in the future.

So I will use the plane for a while - if it breaks it breaks. Ultimately I will replace it with a Lie-Nielsen, and relegate it to the scrub plane patch. Nothing wrong there. However, I have always had the distinct impression that a number five was a "Jack" of all trades, hence the name - Jack Plane. Both a smoother and a rougher, for want of a better term. So I guess I was a little surprised to see several guys who place it in the roughing out world instead of the smoothing world. I would use that on the face of a long board before I grabbed a #4 or #41/2. What makes it a better roughing out plane? I have a beautiful LN #6 that I bought with some mad money I got, and THAT is a substantial plane. It removes acres of wood at a time if I push it. Its my impression that the #5 is closer to a #4 than it is a #6. Am I way off?

Anyway - thanks again for all the feedback. This is a great site for bouncing stuff off the forum and seeing what ye git! Thanks folks. (I am always hesitant to say "Thanks Guys" in case I offend any woman who might be reading. If I let it slip, no offence meant. I actually very much hope there are some woman WW'ers out there contributing to this board.

Joe

[Stew Denton]

Hi Joe,

Yes, the #5 is a Jack plane, and I think #5 1/4 and the #5 1/2 are often put in that same class.. There is some difference of opinion as to the source of the name. "Jack" can refer to Jack of all trades, as you mentioned, and Chris Schwarz has pointed out that in years of old in Jolly Old England that "Jack" meant "common" (as in widely present), and certainly the #5 was the most commonly found and used size plane.

Traditionally, the Stanley planes were so widely used and so numerous that their numbering system became commonly accepted, and their smoothing planes were the #1, #2, #3, #4, and #4 1/2. The #5 was the Jack plane, widely used by carpenters,home owners, maintenance men, etc. If you were only going to have one plane it would likely be a #5, and as you point out, it could be made do for any of the three functions bench planes do, in a pinch. The main job that the #5 does best, in a bench plane application, is to serve as a Fore plane. (This is the first plane used to bring lumber to approximate thickness, and to get it sort of flat. It used a highly cambered iron, and was used to take pretty thick shavings, in order to get the lumber to thickness as quickly as possible. Schwarz uses a #5 as his Fore plane, but the classic Fore plane size is the #6.

After using a Fore plane (the plane you use "fore" you use any other), the next step is to get the lumber flat and very close to the final thickness. This is the job for the jointer planes, also known as "try" planes, the #7s and #8s. These use a long sole to achieve this, and these can typically run 22 to 24 inches long, with some wooden planes of this type can be up to 30 inches long.

Final plane used was the smoother plane, and this plane was used to take off saw marks, milling marks, etc., and get the surface ready to finish.

By the way, the name of the part of the plane you were looking for is the "cheeks" of the plane.

Stew

[Rob Luter]

I have an old "Low Knob" type 11 #5 with a similar crack in the cheek. By the looks of the crack (which is tough to see) it's been there a good long time. It has absolutely no effect on function, and since that area isn't stressed during use I don't expect it will get any worse over time. The plane is 100 years old and works as well as it ever did.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Replying to the original poster, I don't know where the "bout" is located. But if it is part of the frame, you should be able to easily silver solder/braze it. If the crack is a hairline, when you get to the right temperature, it will draw or suck in the silver solder. Get the silver solder and flux from your local welding store. Read the directions. You'll probably need map gas as it may be hard to heat up to the right temperature with propane. Alternatively, if you have access to a kiln you could pre-flux, place the wire of SS over the crack and just heat it up until the SS flows. Look for something with a moderate about of silver - - like around 40-55 % silver.




It is surprisingly strong. I use it in place of steel welding for some applications. But it requires a pretty tight fit and won't fill gaps.

Brice:

Not trying to be snippy or contentious, along with the info you gave on ' silver solder ' ( technically a brazing compound due to the temperatures involved ) is great, but there are a couple things I would like to add.

55% silver solder has a working liquidus in the 1140 - 1200 degree F range, and a very narrow plastic window, meaning that when you are at temperature, the product is very ' watery ' . Attaining temperature will be facilitated using MAPP or oxy/acetylene gas. The Japanning will most certainly burn away at that point and as the steel is in the low end of nearing red hot, warping is a consideration.

The main area of concern for me is the fact that silver solder has to be squeaky ( bright metal ) clean for the solder to flow and adhere properly - a fissure in an old plane casting will most certainly contain dirt / oil / grunge of some sort, that, when heated up to the required temperatures, will contaminate the flux, and render the repair unsatisfactory and or useless.

Brazing is a bit more forgiving dirt wise ( I think ) but the temperatures involved are a couple hundred degrees higher ( again, I think ) - with this, comes more warping.

I am a HVAC guy who has done many many hundreds of silver solder joints and many thousands of silfos joints over the past 35 years, and if you try to shortcut it a bit, things don't work out. Also, scorching the flux is an issue, again, a failed joint is the result.

I guess my point is this: if you can clean it up, silver solder will work, but it is not just as easy as throwing some flux and solder on it, heating it up till it flows and presto.

Good luck - -

Dave B