Advice on Japanese chisels

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm considering investing in some fine Japanese chisels while we still have makers making them. I have a feeling that getting good hand forged chisels might become harder and harder = more expensive as time goes by.

I'm not looking for collector stuff, but hard working user tools. I'll be using these at work almost every day so it's important to me to get chisels that are great users, something that is "more" than the Narex and Ashley ills I have right now. avoiding chipping is a major priority. I like a edge that wears well and doesn't chip.

I'm mostly considering the Ouchi because I like the simple elegant look and they have blade profiles that are desirable to me. any comment how these compare to other brands?

White #2 seems to be the most common. I'm wondering what is to be gained by going with White #1 or blue steel? I've always wanted blue steel chisels but can't really say why

[Brian Holcombe]

I prefer white 1 for a number of reasons, majority being that it is a steel which can be made very hard and yet sharpens on natural stones with ease. I prefer it to blue steel, but prefer blue steel to white 2.

White 1 from a good maker should not be chippy. I have chisels I chop hard maple with and they do not chip, and I spend quite a bit of time working with them before they even really need to be resharpened. I dont prefer to, but I have worked rosewood and ebony with these same tools without much complaint on the part of the tool.

My go-to brand for white 1 is Kikuhiromaru. I think they're wonderful chisels, I have some by the newer generation and some by the other generation and they're nice tools, very sturdy and can stay keen for quite a long time. These take about 1-2 months to receive.

For white 1 I have a few from Yamahiro, which I find a bit rustic, but still they're nice tools. These take about 2 months to receive.

I have some Konobu I expect to be able to try out very soon, they've been well received by other users of them, however they're a longer wait time like 4-6 months~.

I have some Ouchi white 2 chisels, they're good chisels and not chippy at all. I doubt you'd find any disappointing aspect about them and they about 2 months to receive.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks Brian, I was hoping you would respond. so the difference between white 1 and white 2 is how they sharpen on natural stones and edge retention? does the white 1 last much longer than white 2? will I notice a difference if I sharpen on synthetics? why do you prefer blue to white 2? Thanks and sorry for all the questions.

[Brian Holcombe]

Both are plain carbon steels so they will sharpen a bit easier on natural stones than alloy steels. Blue steel is an alloy steel, I have one stone that sharpens it well and one that sharpens it much more slowly.

White 1 is a higher carbon steel than white 2 and can be made to a higher degree of hardness. Methods are employed by top smiths to maintain this hardness while avoiding brittleness and also maintain how much carbon is retained in the solution. So along with white 1 steel you will often see comments that the smiths employ a pine charcoal forge and cold work. Cold work is not literally cold, but 'cold' relatively speaking and it is a technique used to minimizes carbon loss.

I have a layman's understanding of this, but the basic goal is to work the steel until the carbides are very refined. This does two things, it makes the steel easier to sharpen and less prone to chipping.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Do you think I could get Kikuhiromaru in a blade profile like the Ouchi Yama-Ari? I see two sites that list them- japan-tool and iida-tool. would you say this is worth the effort over the ouchi?

[ken hatch]

Matthew,

I've never used Ouchi chisels but I do have Kikuhiromaro #1 White Steel chisels and some #2 White Steel chisels from another maker. Both the #1 and #2 are very good chisels but the #1 will get sharper and I believe hold a working edge longer. If there is a downside to Kikuhiromaro chisels it is they are somewhat a work in progress, they take more setting up than most Western chisel buyers are use to. While I do not have a lot of experience with upper end Japanese chisels I believe that is the case with most. I have a few different makes of chisels both Japanese and Western and the Kikuhiromaro tend to be my go to chisels.

I'm waiting on Brian's report on the Konobu chisels.

ken

[Matthew N. Masail]

Any comments on blue steel? Koyomaichi still offers them

[Rick Fisher]

I have Tasai Blue Steel Chisels and a few Matsumura white steel chisels. I don't find either chippy. The Tasai hold an edge for a really long time. Its to the point that I don't remember last time I sharpened some of them. Under heavy use, they still hold an edge for a really long time.

[Brian Holcombe]

I cant say if any else will make those special sides. It sounds like that is something unique to Stu's offerings.

I have some blue steel koyamaichi chisels that Stu ordered for me that I like very much. My preference has swayed more toward white 1 and harder edges over the past year, but those chisels still remain go-to chisels for me in many circumstance. They're on my bench practically every moment that I'm in the shop.

Japanese chisels from most smiths are like a kit. The only maker I'm aware of that sets the hoops is Tasai and for the most part Tasai stuff is very easy to setup. Kikuhiromaru are more work typically but whoever they use for handles is pretty good and setting the hoops has been minimal work.

Pretty much all them will require some work on the backs, setting the bevel and setting the hoop. Tasai are more like western chisels in that mostly they're pretty much setup you just need to hone and use.

These are some teaser photos of the chisels I'm awaiting;




In another thread I mentioned that I'm happy with all of the Japanese chisels that I own, I'm not saying that to be PC but as a reminder that chisels at this level are like different flavors of ice cream. They're more a thing of personal preference and less that one reins supreme.

You'd be hard pressed to find someone who owns Konobu, Kikuhiromaru, Koyamaichi, Tasai, Kiyohisa, Kiyotada, Yamahiro, Ouchi, ect that hates their chisels....they're all quite good.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I hear you, thanks. I have no idea what I'll go with yet but it help to know it's not all the important for doing work.

on the other note.... wow... I keep going back to look at those chisels..... they look... special

[Tony Shea]

Hida Tool offers a line of chisels the call Fujihiro made by a smith Chutaro Imai. These are labeled as White Steel and have no mention as to what type of white steel. I own 4 of these chisels and for edge durability there is not comparison with any of my other chisels. I have some other Japanese chisels, LN, LV PMV-11, and these chisels out perform all of these in edge retention. I have the multiple hollow versions which I really like on my wider chisels. If I had the $ and time I wouldn't hesitate and order the sword steel Chutaro chisel set just to have for sake of having. Not sure exactly what sword steel is but it sounds like just a fancy name for a mokume or damascus pattern on the soft steel portion. But they are very pretty chisels and if they perform as well as the Fujihiro version then I would happily pay the extra money for the fancier version.

Having said all that I would very much follow Brian's recommendations as he has lots of experience with different Japanese chisels and my experience is limited to just a few different makers. I do own some Koyamaichi bench chisels and wouldn't hesitate recommending these either I just prefer the Imai chisels ever so slightly.

[Frank Drew]

I have some Ouchi white 2 chisels, they're good chisels and not chippy at all. I doubt you'd find any disappointing aspect about them ...

I agree with Brian about Ouchi chisels; they're great users. I bought my set lightly used in 1981 and have put a ton of work on them and they never disappointed me. They're the only brand I have much experience with so can't comment on other makers' tools. I've got a couple of their timber framing chisels and the things are absolute beasts!

[Rick Fisher]

As Brian said, My Tasai Chisels came with the hoops installed, and the backs where dead flat on all of them. They where sharp but needed honing. I think of them as collector chisels but that may be 20 years from now ..



The bench chisels are a set of polished chisels with boxwood handles. They are really good quality.. all different lengths .. lol . but its part of their charm.

[Andrew Hughes]

Very nice looking paring Chisels Rick,I too am a fan of Tasai Chisels.Im lucky I stared my collection when he wasn't too expensive.If I don't side tracked I'll share some pics tomorrow.
If it's okay with you Matthew,I don't want to high Jack your thread.I also agree with the advise of others.
Chisels are one of my favorite hand tools.

[Brian Holcombe]

Haha, the chisel nuts are coming out of the woodwork

Those mokume chisels are really wild. The really awesome thing about alot of makers is that they're putting out usable art.