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Thread: Chisels maybe the wrong subcategory?

  1. #16
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    Patrick, Japanese chisels are easy to sharpen, especially if they are made of plain carbon steel (white 1 or 2) and frankly I find blue steel fairly easy to sharpen as well. There are a few forces in effect here which will drive the decision making.

    I prefer to work plain carbon steel, it can make a very keen edge, it wears very evenly so you wont notice the cut quality falling apart rapidly. Plain carbon, even when made very hard, can sharpen up on natural stones. Natural stones are quite nice to use, both western and eastern varieties.

    I dont think Japanese chisels are the only way, but they're certainly the way I prefer. I like my chisels to be very sharp and I touch them up regularly so I dont need a super wear resistant steel.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Walsh View Post
    So you are saying the steel japanese chisels and planes are made of can be sharpened much sharper than theirAmerican counterparts?

    You are also saying the japanese steel is harder to sharpen but holds a sharp edge much longer.

    Is this correct.

    Just a tid bit with regard to handle size. I have a size large to x-large hand. Not bulky chubby hands but long strong big hands. Funny cuz i weigh 140lbs socking wet..
    Patrick,

    Yes and no.

    What I will say is HC steel will take a sharper edge than A-2. HC steels are Western O-1 and Japanese White Paper steel either #1 or #2. Good Japanese HC steel will take a sharper edge than O-1 and it can hold that edge longer.

    Any of the HC steels, Japanese or Western will be easier to sharpen than A-2.

    Forgive mistakes...inputting on a iPad at work.

    ken

  3. #18
    For whatever reason it be i am drawn to the Japanese chisels.

    At the moment i don't have a ton of $$$$$ to plunk down. Actually i have a Felder rep coming out firs thing tomorrow morning to service my brand new AD941 jointer planer. As if the machine did not cost enough i gotta plunk down a pretty chunk of change to deal with the tables being out of complainer.

    I think for my upcoming door project i will just figure out what size bit I'm going to use to cut my mortise and purchase a Ouchi mortise chisel in that size or a couple close to it. One of the pros to going Japanese is the metric thing for me. Being the large majority of my machines are european and metric using Japanese chisels just makes sense to me. Its kinda funny because all day at work i use the imperial system then on the weekends and nights I'm mostly metric. Its good though as it teaches me to easily go back and forth when need be.

    I also have a number of dovetailed drawers to make. I think again i will just buy a small set of the Ouchi dovetail chisels or the ones that correspond to the size dovetails i decide to use.

    If i don't like the Japanese chisels then i can always sell them here and buy some LN'S and or BS's.....

    where os the best place to get the Ouchi chisels. I did some nerding out last night and what i found was that the Ouchi can also be very expensive even in comparison to LN'S and BS'S.



    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post


    Patrick, Japanese chisels are easy to sharpen, especially if they are made of plain carbon steel (white 1 or 2) and frankly I find blue steel fairly easy to sharpen as well. There are a few forces in effect here which will drive the decision making.

    I prefer to work plain carbon steel, it can make a very keen edge, it wears very evenly so you wont notice the cut quality falling apart rapidly. Plain carbon, even when made very hard, can sharpen up on natural stones. Natural stones are quite nice to use, both western and eastern varieties.

    I dont think Japanese chisels are the only way, but they're certainly the way I prefer. I like my chisels to be very sharp and I touch them up regularly so I dont need a super wear resistant steel.

  4. #19
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    I'm wondering why you're leaning toward a mortise chisel for squaring the corners? If you plan to chop mortises by hand, then buy the mortise chisel, but with all of the wood removed I would simply use a heavy type of chisel called a Tataki nomi, which is a 'striking chisel', they're usually made longer than bench chisels.

    If you are cutting half blind dovetails then you'll need a fishtail chisel in addition to thinned edge chisels. The fishtail chisels I prefer are called 'Ichou-gata' and the thinned edge chisels are called 'Shinogi-nomi'.

    I've ordered Ouchi from Stu (toolsfromjapan), in my experience they take about 10 weeks.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  5. #20
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    I had to chime in with my opinion because it seemed a bit one sided in here, even though I still lean a little to that one side.

    I own a few different brand chisels and have to admit I absolutely love the feel, aesthetics, sharpness, etc of my Japanese chisels (one brand in particular). But I also absolutely LOVE my LN A2 bench chisels as well. I do not own or have never used a Blue Spruce to compare the LN's to but I can say that I will never part with my LN's and will be completing the set next month once I buy the 3/16" and 7/16" sizes. With Shapton Pro stones I feel like I can get an edge on these chisels that rivals the sharpness of any other steel I have in my arsenal and they really do keep it for a long time. The closest brand I own to compare these to are my LV PMV11 chisels and I still prefer the LN brand. I just like the feel, edge holding, durability of handles, ease of sharpening, and anything else I can think of for these wonderful tools. I am not sure what the issue with A2 steel here is but I personally don't have any issue with it at all. But I also use a hollow grind and free hand sharpen and maintain this hollow anytime it starts to get excessive. I just love them.

    On the other hand I also love my Japanese chisels as well. I own a few different makers of Japanese chisels and one brand in particular really stands out in ease of sharpening, fit and finish, edge holding (which includes chipping in dense tropical woods), comfort, etc. I just can't recommend Chutaro Imai Fujihiro line of chisels enough. These chisels are absolutely my favorite chisels I own hands down. But keep in mind these are working chisels not trophy chisels so they are in no way ornate. Having said that the fit and finish of them is absolutely wonderful, especially when compared to any other brand/maker of Japaneses chisels I own. The only thing that I needed to do to these chisels is set the hoops and flatten the backs, which were extremely flat to begin with. I am not positive if they are White #1 or #2 but either way these things hold and take an edge better than any TOOL I own. Last I checked there were plenty of reviews for these chisels out there and may be more now.

    So take that for what it's worth, all the other recommendations are very sound but I had to throw my input in as well. I also agree that you should def be looking at bench chisels before mortise chisels. You DO NOT need the bulky form of the mortise chisel to square up your mortises if 95% of the was is already removed by a router bit. A bench chisel is designed exactly for this purpose and should hold up perfectly well. Start off with some decent bench chisels and you will be well on your way.

  6. #21
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    Lots of good advise with a variety of workable methods. Let me add another; if you are cleaning up end grain at the end of a mortice, this requires a chisel you would be willing to strike, although it would be a light blow in this instance. Consider getting the narex bench chisels and sharpen them to a less acute angle such as 30/32 degrees. These are quality chisels that are inexpensive, will allow you to focus more of your resources to purchase a high quality set of chisels that you can sharpen to a more acute angle such as 22/25 degrees that pares better and will allow you to have a set of chisels for those less delicate tasks at the bench such as opening paint cans.

  7. #22
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    have a set of chisels for those less delicate tasks at the bench such as opening paint cans.
    And be sure to wear body armor, if you are ever foolish enough to do this, so as to protect yourself if a part of the chisel should chip off and take flight.

    Otherwise we might read about you during the annual ritual of the Darwin Awards.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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  8. #23
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    I don't think I saw anyone mention Ray Iles. Traditional English style. I really like how the oval handles align in my hand. They're a good size and fit in my hand well. D2 steel is some good stuff as well.

    It all boils down to preference. I have some LN mortise chisels, and prefer the Iles.
    Where did I put that tape measure...

  9. #24
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    With all the comments on A2 not getting as sharp, let me ask... Has anyone not been able to do a specific job with A2 where you couldn't get your tool sharp enough to make you wish you had O1? Seriously? I have A2 steel chisels and never once have I though to myself that my chisels were not anything less than razor sharp. I get that people want the most they can get, but where does the line come up where the minute differences are realistically no longer perceivable in real life application vs just being in ones head?

  10. #25
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    Bob,

    They can be made plenty sharp for my purposes. My reasons for moving away from A2 are;

    The wear bevel created on A2 is quite sturdy, I must always go down to 1000 grit to remove it entirely and work my way back up through to 13,000 grit sigma. All of those stones require time to soak and so the process of sharpening A2 is always very time consuming.

    HC steel can be sharpened with ease on natural stones, natural stones (for the most part) do not require soaking. I can remove the wear rapidly and so I do not need to go back to 1000 grit in order to remove the wear, it can be done so on a suita or a recently stone that I just received called a Tsushima. I can also use a soft ark, ect, ect. Many options which make life much easier.

    A2, in use, will wear unevenly, it tends to lose its keenness rapidly, but will still remain sharp enough to cut for a long period of time. In practical use I find HC steel to remain sharp enough to leave a quality surface for much longer than A2, it wears evenly and so it doesnt lose its keenness so quickly.
    Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 11-21-2015 at 2:11 PM.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  11. #26
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    Certainly there are lots of ways to build a chisel collection. Personally I like buying just 2-3 sizes of a particular chisel type in the exact sizes needed for a specific job. Most people do the majority of their work with a few specific sizes most of the time. Trying out different types of chisels for actual work will give the woodworker a much better idea of what works well for their individual tastes, hands, work....

    I like to have two different chisel types 1) those designed to be struck with: metal, wood, composite hammer or mallet 2) chisels used more for paring by hand. I have a few of LV's PM-V11 chisels which can be struck but are more often used for paring. I have a single large Japanese paring chisel, but may add more. I like the Japanese hopped chisels for striking. Something about hitting those chisels with a Japanese hammer designed for the job just feels more precise. Another option for chisels that can take getting hit very well are the chisels made here in the US by Barr Specialty Tools.

    I think it is also wise to figure out how you plan to sharpen your chisels before you buy. As evidenced by Brian's and other comments, the sharpening methods/stones/grinder...you use will work better or worse with different tools. Chisels, particularly those that are struck, can require a good deal of care. It is wise to have a good plan for making this part of using these tools as easy as possible.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 11-21-2015 at 1:34 PM.

  12. #27
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    I bought some Ray Isles chisels, English pattern, several years ago. They are a very good alternative to the much more expensive LN and LV and Blue Spruce.

    That said, the set of Narex chisels I have work great, get very sharp and hold an edge. They are a great value for sure.
    Last edited by Terry Beadle; 11-22-2015 at 11:20 AM. Reason: spelling error

  13. #28
    I like the idea of hand sharpening.

    But I'm thinking Tormek as i have limited shop time. I work on average 50hrs a week as a carpenter as is so i would rather spend time building than tuning my tools.

    On the other hand i am a ruthless perfectionist so i don't know.

    Is one quicker than the other, stones vrs machine..

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    Certainly there are lots of ways to build a chisel collection. Personally I like buying just 2-3 sizes of a particular chisel type in the exact sizes needed for a specific job. Most people do the majority of their work with a few specific sizes most of the time. Trying out different types of chisels for actual work will give the woodworker a much better idea of what works well for their individual tastes, hands, work....

    I like to have two different chisel types 1) those designed to be struck with: metal, wood, composite hammer or mallet 2) chisels used more for paring by hand. I have a few of LV's PM-V11 chisels which can be struck but are more often used for paring. I have a single large Japanese paring chisel, but may add more. I like the Japanese hopped chisels for striking. Something about hitting those chisels with a Japanese hammer designed for the job just feels more precise. Another option for chisels that can take getting hit very well are the chisels made here in the US by Barr Specialty Tools.

    I think it is also wise to figure out how you plan to sharpen your chisels before you buy. As evidenced by Brian's and other comments, the sharpening methods/stones/grinder...you use will work better or worse with different tools. Chisels, particularly those that are struck, can require a good deal of care. It is wise to have a good plan for making this part of using these tools as easy as possible.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Walsh View Post
    I like the idea of hand sharpening.

    But I'm thinking Tormek as i have limited shop time. I work on average 50hrs a week as a carpenter as is so i would rather spend time building than tuning my tools.

    On the other hand i am a ruthless perfectionist so i don't know.

    Is one quicker than the other, stones vrs machine..
    Patrick,

    The Tormek is a great machine, it will sharpen your tools to a good edge but, there is that damn "but" again, you can sharpen to a better working edge quicker by using good stones and doing it freehand. I've used my T-7 off and on for years to set the bevel when needed but I have replaced even that function with a CBN wheel that is much quicker.

    There isn't a faster way to sharpen iron than setting up the edge freehand on one or two diamond stones followed by a medium and a hard natural stone (either oil or water) and a strop if needed. It is quick, with little maintenance and mess and the best part is you end up with a better working edge.

    Watch the "for sale" area or PM me if you decide you want a Tormek, it is not a done deal but I've been thinking of moving mine out. It logically follows, I think there are better ways or I wouldn't be thinking of selling.

    ken

  15. #30
    Hmmm,

    That be the case what would the suggested lineup of stones be.

    I may be interested in your Tormek. I do have to consider the mostpractical approach with regard to $$$$ at the moment as i just spent just under 20k on a jointer/planer and dust collector.

    My guess is i could easily spend $6-700 on stones?



    Quote Originally Posted by ken hatch View Post
    Patrick,

    The Tormek is a great machine, it will sharpen your tools to a good edge but, there is that damn "but" again, you can sharpen to a better working edge quicker by using good stones and doing it freehand. I've used my T-7 off and on for years to set the bevel when needed but I have replaced even that function with a CBN wheel that is much quicker.

    There isn't a faster way to sharpen iron than setting up the edge freehand on one or two diamond stones followed by a medium and a hard natural stone (either oil or water) and a strop if needed. It is quick, with little maintenance and mess and the best part is you end up with a better working edge.

    Watch the "for sale" area or PM me if you decide you want a Tormek, it is not a done deal but I've been thinking of moving mine out. It logically follows, I think there are better ways or I wouldn't be thinking of selling.

    ken

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