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Thread: Vise instalation and bench racking questions

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    Vise instalation and bench racking questions

    Last night I installed the vise in my workbench; after taking the picture, remembered why I had been delaying. I have some nice maple for a skirt, just have to color it a bit to bring out the figure, which I will be able to do as I now have the dyes. I had intended to add the skirt BEFORE the vise, but got carried away with that dovetail thing and went ahead and mounted the vise. Upon posting the picture to the dovetail thread, it occurred to me that the skirt issue will now be more complicated. A pic of the mounted vise is here in post #49: http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.p...5&page=4&pp=15

    Here are a few questions:

    Do most of you inlet your bench or add a skirt so that there are no gaps between the pads and the bench surface? You can see that there is a space of about 1/2 inch taken up by the iron rear jaw of the vise. I could easily thin down my skirt a bit and fit it around the vise.

    Another thought was to apply the skirt and then reinstall the vise, leaving the gap, which would provide just enough room to inset a small bar clamp jaw, which could allow the jaw pads to be extended quite a bit to the right to hold wide boards. With the additional pressure of the clamp, I would think this would make a good substitute for a twin screw vise such as Lee Valley's. Has anyone tried that before, and if so, what were the results? Could the same thing be accomplished by giving the inside faces a slight taper, similar to a clamping caul? Would a slightly thicker piece of material placed at the far left of the jaws induce enough controlled rack to firmly hold wide boards that extend well beyond the iron jaws?

    Which is preferable for jaw pads, soft or hardwood. I used some fairly soft, clear pine, because that's all I had laying about in the appropriate thickness.

    Now on to the racking problem. While trying out the vise and new saw last night, I discovered that the bench has some racking when force is deliverd along its length. If it is noticable with just sawing, I am assuming it will be worse with planing. How can I best reinforce it without badly disrupting the storage potential?

    It now has a plywood shelf across the base, and will have three drawers running under the top. It is built from the Woodsmith plan, most joints are "constructed lap joints", that is, 2x4's applied in such a way as to create the laps, as opposed to cutting the wood. The long top and bottom stretchers are bolted on similar to bed bolts. Part of the problem lies in the fact that the pieces were cut to final size from the list, rather than fitted as I went, so there are some minor gaps in the joints.

    I'm thinking of screwing additional 2x4 braces lenghtwise from the inside and just under the level of the drawers so as not to interfere with them, and 2x6's over the lower stretchers on the outside, so as to allow access to bolts to dismanlte the bench if need arises. I don't want to glue either of these braces if possible, as that would negate the breakdown feature. Both braces would be fastened to both halves of the combined 4x4 legs. Note that the stretchers are not flush with the legs, which complicates things a bit.

    Front to back bracing is a little more straight forward, as the storage access is not such a big factor here.

    I appreciate any suggestions you might have.

    A pic of the entire bench can be found here: http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.p...ight=workbench

    Here is a detail of the right front corner which gives a closer look at the joinery (pseudo joinery?), includes a guide for the drawer runner.




    Dan
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    Last edited by Dan Forman; 08-31-2005 at 5:56 PM.
    Eternity is an awfully long time, especially toward the end.

    -Woody Allen-

    Critiques on works posted are always welcome

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
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    KC, MO
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    Dan,

    I think your proposal on the braces will work to stiffen it up considerably. Although not visually appealing, a diagonal cross brace in the back & front will certainly put an end to the racking...........

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    St Thomas, Ont.
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    553
    My workbench was made with 10/4 x 5 inch white ash and it racked. I solved the problem after consulting with an engineering person I used to work with. I installed a diagonal piece in the end framework for the bench. This solved most but not all the racking issues. So I recently installed a piece of MAple veneer core plywood in the other end which fills the space, problem solved. If you have any decent looking plywood around fill both ends it should solve the problem.

    I would attach a picture but it is apparently too large, I will see what I can do to fix that.

    The vice I used was the twin screw Veritas which went over the entire end of the bench. I have a smaller vice on the other end but it is the kind you attach wooden jaws to and does not have metal plates to contend with.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Philadelphia, Pa
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    Dan,

    From what I can see, you might consider two things, poss. 3, short of rebuilding your base. First, take it apart so you have the two end panels. It looks like your built up cross laps are bolted. I would glue them, poss with a gap filler like epoxy. That should make them like iron. At that point the bolts would not be needed.

    Second, I would use wider stretchers on the bottom. If it is construction lumber you will use, then a 2x8, or glued up 2x4's. I can't see the attachment of the bottom stretchers to the leg assemblies, but the way I did it was a very shallow M&T, with the shoulder about 1/4" wide only, and about 3/8" deep. Then, drill and install a 1/2" x 6" bolt, which would thread into a captured nut cut into the stretcher. This way you can tighten it up pretty hard since you are drawing primarily agaisnt the end grain of the stretcher. The top stretcher may carry the weight of the top, and prohibit it from drooping in the middle, but it will not help you much with racking. Instead, install bolts down through the door and the stretchers at the top of the leg assemblies.

    The third suggestion is that if the bench still racks end to end, then install a full plywood or mdf panel across the back, screwed in so you can remove it.

    As to the skirt and vise issue, one way to do it, which is illustrated in the Landis book, I think, is to install your skirt across the the back jaw, recessed around it, which will make the skirt the face of the rear jaw. Then it will be even with the rest of the skirt automatically. I might use pretty heavy wood, such as 8/4 hard maple or other hardwood.

    As to the device I mentioned to stop the vise from racking, mine is a total thickness, all the shims in use, of just over 3" since I often work 12/4 leg stock.

    If you like, feel free to PM me if you have further questions.
    Alan Turner
    Philadelphia Furniture Workshop

  5. #5
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    Mar 2005
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    Well, all of this talk about bolts made me think it might be a good idea to check the tightness of mine. The stretchers are but jointed with bolts to the end frames, (like Alan's, except no m+t) which are glued and screwed together in a lap pattern. All of them took a bit of turning, so I'm hoping that will pretty much take care of things, will find out shortly.

    Thanks for all of the suggestions, if necessary will probably add a 2x8 to the long stretchers, and plywood back if that doesn't do it. If nothing else they would add a little weight, which wouldn't hurt.

    After tightening up, the plywood shelf would no longer fit, so will have to shave a bit off that, guess the whole thing is shrinking some.

    Tonight I shimmed the vise to make it square to the bench top, was drooping a tad. I also drilled two rows of dog holes and secured the mdf top with countersunk scres in the corners.

    I have some nice figured maple already milled for the skirt, so I think I'll just apply that around the vise rather than trying to get too fancy, as I can't think of anything else right off hand to use that wood for, since it is fairly narrow.

    Dan
    Eternity is an awfully long time, especially toward the end.

    -Woody Allen-

    Critiques on works posted are always welcome

  6. #6
    Dan,

    My bench is set up so the skirt is flush with the inside face of my vise. As to the racking, I know what you're going through. My last bench was terrible and racked badly when planing or working from the end. I noticed that your bench is up against the wall, as was mine. My solution was to put to lag bolts through a rear support stretcher directly into the studs of the wall. No more racking. I affixed a stretcher with screws along the back of my bench. Just screws and glue into the legs to take up the thickness of the overhang on the top. Then found two studs and bolted it to the wall. Never racked again. When my shop was in the basement of my last house I used concrete screw (3 or 4 of them) into the cinderblocks also worked well. I do like having my bench away from the wall now though. Hope this helps.
    "When we build, let us think that we build forever." - Ruskin

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Black Earth, WI
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    19
    Alan, thanks for that tip about using an MDF panel on the back. That just solved the racking problem on my bench. Easy fix to an annoying problem.

  8. #8
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    Mar 2005
    Location
    Boyds, MD
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    Question Follow Up about vise face wood

    Does anybody have recommendations in response to the question as to whether the wood for the faces of the vise should be hard or soft. For example, would using something really hard like Brazillian cherry (Janka 2840) or Bolivian cherry (Janka 3190) be really good or really bad? I would think having it harder than most of the things you put in it would make it last longer, but would it damage the pieces? Does the potential damage mean that a soft wood (not necessarily "softwood") would be better, perhaps somethinge like Asia chestnut (Janka 540) ?
    Thanks

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    York Co, PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch Hayes
    Does anybody have recommendations in response to the question as to whether the wood for the faces of the vise should be hard or soft. For example, would using something really hard like Brazillian cherry (Janka 2840) or Bolivian cherry (Janka 3190) be really good or really bad? I would think having it harder than most of the things you put in it would make it last longer, but would it damage the pieces? Does the potential damage mean that a soft wood (not necessarily "softwood") would be better, perhaps somethinge like Asia chestnut (Janka 540) ?
    Thanks
    FWIW, I'll be using hard maple. For clamping flat projects, i don't think damaging te pieces is much of a risk. If it's not flat, I'd "pad it" in some way anyway, so "soft" jaws are a moot point, IMHO.

    Cheers,
    -Mike

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    St Thomas, Ont.
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    553
    I used hard maple heartwood on my bench, 6 inches by 27 and 8/4 and have had no problem with it damaging any of my projects and I have been using a lot of white pine lately.

  11. #11
    I used to have a similar problem with my bench...until I rebuilt the base.


    I decided that the problem with the 'portable' bench is that it would move on its own...solid joinery and a sturdy design fixed that for me.

    Here's a photo of my corrected base. I added a center leg and made all the joints with a dovetail design. Lots of glue and a few cinder blocks really helped too.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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