Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Bowl gouges. Questions

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Haubstadt (Evansville), Indiana
    Posts
    1,294

    Bowl gouges. Questions

    I am new at bowl turning. My current bowl gouges are the Benjamin Best that I want to upgrade. I also have a few Sorby tools, skews, hollowers, spindlemaster scraper and the spiraling tool. I also have the red handle HF chisel set. My lathe is a PM 90 that I am thinking of raising for 18" swing next year.

    1. Bowl gouges, I think I need a 1/2" and 5/8". Do I need more (I have a Crown 3/8")

    2. I am guessing I should get the "V" instead of the "U" shape? Do I need both?

    3. Brand, my research indicates that D-Way and Thompson are about equal and excellent. I believe they are better than mfg brands. Correct? Is there a preference to a particular brand/Mfg? Does either give any discount to SC members?

    4. Handles, Thompson offers a handle that can be loaded with steel shot. Is that an advantage over a solid handle? Or do you turn your own handles?

    5. Scrapers, I have two scrapers I made from an old Delta Skew and old shopsmith skew. They are not HSS but work well except for sharpening frequently. One is sharpened for a inside bowl scraper and one as square. My thought would be to buy Sorby scrapers.

    6. I have the Sorby Hollowmaster and Swan Neck hollowing tool so I think I am good there, but need a lot more practice.

    Thanks for advice
    When working I had more money than time. In retirement I have more time than money. Love the time, miss the money.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Brentwood, TN
    Posts
    684
    1. Bowl Gouges - Though probably not the best money can buy, they were what I can afford - WoodRiver 1/2" & 5/8" from Woodcraft. About 1/3 less cost, and they work well for me. They hold a good edge and have become very useful to learn with. Eventually I will get Thompson tools, but for now I'm good.

    2. Scrapers - bigger and thicker is better - I'd like to have a 1" wide x 1/2" thick for scraping inside of deeper objects. The thicker the blade is the less it will vibrate down deep, and far off the tool rest.
    Last edited by Mark Greenbaum; 11-22-2015 at 11:22 AM.
    Maker of Fine Kindling, and small metal chips on the floor.
    Embellishments to the Stars - or wannabees.

  3. #3
    William, I responded point by point inside your post below.


    Quote Originally Posted by William C Rogers View Post
    I am new at bowl turning. My current bowl gouges are the Benjamin Best that I want to upgrade. I also have a few Sorby tools, skews, hollowers, spindlemaster scraper and the spiraling tool. I also have the red handle HF chisel set. My lathe is a PM 90 that I am thinking of raising for 18" swing next year.

    1. Bowl gouges, I think I need a 1/2" and 5/8". Do I need more (I have a Crown 3/8")

    a 1/2" and 5/8" are in most turners tool collection, you need to understand that American and UK makers measure their tools differently. In the UK the 1/2" measurement is the inside of the flute, in the USA the 1/2" is the diameter of the gouge steel. I use both sizes. I used to rough out logs with a big ole 5/8" and switch to the 1/2" once it was running true. (I only say used to, because I bought a monster roughing gouge from Thompson, so I use that for rounding logs now)

    2. I am guessing I should get the "V" instead of the "U" shape? Do I need both?

    V is considered more controllable and the it ejects the curlies at a sharper angle. The U is a more aggressive flute. I prefer the U, but I have been turning a while.

    3. Brand, my research indicates that D-Way and Thompson are about equal and excellent. I believe they are better than mfg brands. Correct? Is there a preference to a particular brand/Mfg? Does either give any discount to SC members?

    The steel of D-Way and Thompson are not the same. I believe Dave (D-Way) uses M42 and Doug uses power metal technology with 10% Valadium. There are subtle differences. I prefer Doug's steel. They stay sharper a noticeable amount longer than, say, my Sorbys. The only tool I own from D-Way is a beading tool and I really can't compare them.

    4. Handles, Thompson offers a handle that can be loaded with steel shot. Is that an advantage over a solid handle? Or do you turn your own handles?

    I like the flat sides on Doug's handles because they won't roll off the bed of the lathe, but I dump the shot. I don't care for the added weight. I also really like the feel of wood handles and fairly easy to make. That helps keep the price down a lot. Buy a gouge steel from Doug for $55 and turn a handle. Pretty reasonable for a top end tool.

    5. Scrapers, I have two scrapers I made from an old Delta Skew and old shopsmith skew. They are not HSS but work well except for sharpening frequently. One is sharpened for a inside bowl scraper and one as square. My thought would be to buy Sorby scrapers.

    Again, I own several Sorby tools including some big scrapers. You pay an awful lot for a handled tool and had I known better about making a handle, I would have just bought the steel.

    6. I have the Sorby Hollowmaster and Swan Neck hollowing tool so I think I am good there, but need a lot more practice.

    I own the Hollowmaster as well. Worse hollowing tool I own and it does not get used for anything other than a shear scrap with the tear drop scraper blade on it. It is too short (handle) and the clunky end will not always stay in the position I put it at. I use Trench Bosch 1/2" bars and use them in a handle and in a hollowing rig on occasion. For the little forms (5" and smaller) I use a small Benjamin Best set from Penn State. They are cheap Chinese tools but the set I got hold an edge a long time and the bar stock is about 1/4" so they fit easily through the 1/2" holes I try to do in my HFs. Not many people make the smaller HF tools, so you use what you can find is you want small entry holes.

    Thanks for advice
    -------
    No, it's not thin enough yet.
    -------

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Harrisburg, NC
    Posts
    814
    To expand just a little on bowl gouge sizes. As Scott stated, the UK and US sizes are different with the diameter of the shaft on UK being 1/8" larger than on the US. If you have a 3/8 Crown the shaft diameter is 1/2. If you buy a Thompson (or other US spec) 1/2" it will be almost identical to the 3/8" Crown. This applies to bowl gouges only and not spindle gouges. UK would be Crown, Sorby, Ashely Isles, Hamlet, and others. Some companies have their tools made by UK mfgs so theirs are UK specs. Packards are made by Hamlet, Woodworker Supply by Crown, etc.
    "I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity." - Edgar Allan Poe

  5. #5
    Dave (D-Way) does use M42 Cobalt steel, and while it is different from the 10% Vanadium, there are advantages to each. M42 is a molybdenum-series high-speed steel alloy with an additional 8% cobalt. M42 Cobalt can be heat treated to a much higher hardness than most CPM material.Dave's tools are HRC 67-68, and his flutes are polished. Just as a plane iron needs to be flattened and polished on the back to achieve a good edge, a polished flute will produce a finer edge than a flute with mill marks. In addition, Dave's flute is more of a parabolic, which I find more to my liking for my "go to" bowl gouge, which is a 1/2" D-Way. That said, I also use a 3/8" Thompson V for detailing forms and would not be willing to give it up. I also have Doug's 1/2" U that I use as a bottom feeder, and likewise, would not give it up. In short, they both make fine tools, and each has a place depending on one's individual needs, turning style, work product, and personal preference.

    On steel, there is nearly always a trade off - impact toughness vs. wear resistance. It is hard to have both in a steel. Here is some data you may find helpful - or not. The type of wood one turns, along with silica content and other foreign material may dictate which steel would best suit your needs.

    Heat Treatment Temp
    HRC
    Wear Resistance
    Adhesive
    Impact Toughness
    Ft/lbs
    CPM 15V
    2150°F (1175°C)
    64
    124
    8
    CPM 15V
    2050°F (1120°C)
    61
    -
    9
    CPM 15V
    2050°F (1120°C)
    58
    -
    13
    CPM 10V
    2150°F (1175°C)
    63
    90
    14
    CPM M4
    2120°F (1160°C)
    63
    31
    31.5
    D2
    1850°F (1010°C)
    60
    4
    17
    D7
    1900°F (1040°C)
    61
    7
    6
    *Information taken from data sheets of Crucible Metallurgy

    Toughness
    * Ability to resist chipping or breakage. Several factors influence toughness, including : amount of carbon in solution, the hardness the steel is heat treated to, the carbide size and volume, and the other alloy in solution. Carbide size and volume are probably the greatest controlling factors for toughness. High amounts of chromium weaken grain boundaries, although for stainless steels carbide size and volume are the limiting factor. Nickel and silicon in moderate amounts increase toughness without affecting strength.

    Wear Resistance
    * The ability to resist abrasive wear. Highly important property for slicing type cutting, especially when slicing abrasive materials like rope and cardboard, but less important in general when it comes to slicing soft, less abrasive materials, in which case edge stability, strength, and toughness are more important for holding an acute, polished edge. For the slicing cuts, if the edge is relatively thick wear resistance is more beneficial. Generally greater wear resistance means the steel more difficult to sharpen, so even if a knife can benefit from a steel of greater wear resistance, less wear resistance may be preferred for easier resharpening.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    E TN, near Knoxville
    Posts
    12,298
    Might depend on what you want to turn. Yesterday, Chris Ramsey (the wooden cowboy hat guy) said besides the larger gouges he liked a smaller bowl gouge for detail. I think he said his was 3/16". He also touted the virtues of very heavy handles which can dampen vibration and stabilize the cut.

    Doug Thompson sells scrapers in the same excellent steel he uses for other tools. You can shape them any way you like. I sharpened some of his round rods and detail gouges into small negative rake scrapers. They are my favorite scrapers for glass-like surfaces on end grain in good wood, such as the tops of boxes.

    If you don't have good spindle or detail gouges you might consider one for detail in tight places on face turnings, and for spindles of course. I prefer Thompson's. Mike Hunter's carbide tools are great also. I like the ones with tapered shafts to provide a small cutter with thicker shafts for less vibration.

    Some prefer the U, some V bowl gouges. I have some of each and they both work for me.

    JKJ

  7. #7
    Ask 10 turners, well just about every group, and you will get at least a dozen different answers... As far as metals go, I can't give specs, but for best value, you can't beat D Way or Thompson, and you buy direct from the guys that make the tools. As far as wear, they both hold an edge far better than standard M2 HSS, which to me means that I can do a lot more roughing before I need to sharpen, but, I always touch up the edge for finish cuts. As for flute shape, the Thompson V works well with a swept back grind or a 40 bevel/40 sweep though I prefer a 45/45. The U works better as a 45/45 or a BOB (bottom of bowl) tool. Lyle Jamieson sells a parabolic flute Thompson gouge, which works well with swept back grinds or 45/45. The D Way are more V, but seem to work a bit better with a swept back design, but do work for 45/45.

    For my scrapers, I prefer 5/16 to 3/8 thick and 1 to 1 1/4 wide. For bowls, you really don't need more. If I have to reach out with a scraper, I want more of the hollowing tool types, so small tip, and round bar stock. I do have one 1/2 inch thick by about 3/4 wide scraper with a long shaft, but turned it into a negative rake scraper. I just don't like to hang out with standard scrapers...

    Shot filled handles, I feel are a fad. You won't see any production turners using them because they are just too dang heavy for a long day's worth of turning. If you want to dampen vibration, moving the tool rest does more than the shot.

    I have a bunch of bowl turning clips up on You Tube, and show a bunch of different gouges and scrapers, and explain the differences. Type in robo hippy.

    robo hippy

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Fort Pierce, Florida
    Posts
    3,498
    I will address each in the quote too:

    Quote Originally Posted by William C Rogers View Post
    I am new at bowl turning. My current bowl gouges are the Benjamin Best that I want to upgrade. I also have a few Sorby tools, skews, hollowers, spindlemaster scraper and the spiraling tool. I also have the red handle HF chisel set. My lathe is a PM 90 that I am thinking of raising for 18" swing next year.

    1. Bowl gouges, I think I need a 1/2" and 5/8". Do I need more (I have a Crown 3/8")

    English vs US sizes were discussed, but as a caveat, I understand that most US importers will list a UK tool as the US equivalent. their sizing is actually more complex that mentioned, and varies by maker. Also, they sell over there in mm not inches.

    I rarely use my 5/8" gouges except for roughing, then move to 1/2 or even 3/8". Which Crown? They also make the PM-PRO which is crucible metal similar to Doug Thompson although they do not specify exactly which alloy they use. When changing to crucible metals, I strongly recommend the use of CBN wheels or at least hones for sharpening.


    2. I am guessing I should get the "V" instead of the "U" shape? Do I need both?

    I prefer the parabolic to either, with the V a close second for most turning. It gives a bigger sweet spot at the tip than a tight V while still allowing long sides on a fingernail grind. The very broad bottom of the U is good for bottom feeders.


    3. Brand, my research indicates that D-Way and Thompson are about equal and excellent. I believe they are better than mfg brands. Correct? Is there a preference to a particular brand/Mfg? Does either give any discount to SC members?

    D-way is more polished and the edge lasts as well as the Thompson's IMHO. A couple of my Thompson's have noticeable ridges in the flute which translate to the edge.

    4. Handles, Thompson offers a handle that can be loaded with steel shot. Is that an advantage over a solid handle? Or do you turn your own handles?

    I found the shot too heavy and removed it from the one Thompson handle I own. Some love it for vibration damping. I make my own aluminium handles.


    5. Scrapers, I have two scrapers I made from an old Delta Skew and old shopsmith skew. They are not HSS but work well except for sharpening frequently. One is sharpened for a inside bowl scraper and one as square. My thought would be to buy Sorby scrapers.

    Like gouges, HSS or Crucible metal (also called powder metal as the metal is powdered before smelting to insure a complete mix) will hold an edge or burr longer. That said I still use my Benjamins Best and Sorby HSS scrapers.

    6. I have the Sorby Hollowmaster and Swan Neck hollowing tool so I think I am good there, but need a lot more practice.

    Depending on the size and type of your turning you may find others that work better, but that is a whole separate series of discussions.

    Thanks for advice
    Retired - when every day is Saturday (unless it's Sunday).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    lufkin tx
    Posts
    2,054
    I will comment on the hollowing--nothing compares with the Woodcut Promaster-note- the hook cutter with limiter can be purchased and attached to a homemade D shaped controller very cheaply. Been using one for 20 years., They never wear out and sharpen quickly.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Haubstadt (Evansville), Indiana
    Posts
    1,294
    Thanks for all the replies. Scott thanks for the info in number 6, I thought it was me. Thom, my crown is 3/8 shaft, so 1/4 UK and 3/8 US. The first thing I ordered was Reeds Robo Rest, I think that will help me in my sharpening. Both Thompson and D-Way use it in their sharpening. Right now I intend to order from Thompson 1/2, 5/8 bowl gouges and handles and a 1 1/4" scraper and 1" scraper and will make handles for those.

    Thought you you might get a kick out of this from my first use of a bowl gouge a while back. I have gotten better.
    image.jpg
    When working I had more money than time. In retirement I have more time than money. Love the time, miss the money.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    E TN, near Knoxville
    Posts
    12,298

    Yikes!

    Quote Originally Posted by William C Rogers View Post
    you might get a kick out of this from my first use of a bowl gouge a while back. I have gotten better.
    Is that an optical illusion or is the tip of the bowl gouge really ground that pointed? If so, to me it looks uncontrollable.

    gouge_tip.jpg

    Look at the grind Chris Ramsey uses on his famous cowboy hats, very rounded from the tip, a very narrow bevel wrapping around and all the way down the wings (side view, kind of dusty here):

    Ramsey_gouge.jpg

    That's what he's using here (1/2 or 5/8" I think):

    Ramsey_IMG_4368.jpg

    I ground one like this the other day and it is a dream to use, EXTREMELY controllable for heavy or delicate cuts. You'd have to work hard to make it catch.

    BTW, I'd cut the bent gouge off beyond the bend and grind the the tool into something else (depending on how long the flute is), short gouge, point tool, negative rake scraper, round skew, etc.

    JKJ

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Haubstadt (Evansville), Indiana
    Posts
    1,294
    I ground it before I noticed it was bent. That may contribute to the shape. I haven't used it again.
    When working I had more money than time. In retirement I have more time than money. Love the time, miss the money.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •