Water pump / tank question.

[Allan Speers]

Sorry, I didn't know where to post this, as SMC doesn't have a "homeowners" forum. (It probably should.) I know we have some plumbing experts here, and technically I have a sink in my workshop, so ....
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I have a problem with my house water pressure. It's a well system, with an internal pump and a bladder-type tank of unknown age.

The water pressure is fluctuating badly, with both hot & cold. With the water running from a single faucet, the main water tank’s pressure gauge fluctuates very quickly between 20 and 50 psi, (going from high to low in maybe 2 seconds or less) with a corresponding on-off cycle of the pump.

However, this only happens when a single faucet is open. If I open several faucets, I get a steady stream and the tank’s gauge reads a rock-steady 50 psi.


A plumber friend of mine suggested (without seeing it) that the pressure switch may be bad, (I have not even tried adjusting it yet) but because the problem goes away when there is less back-pressure, I’m thinking it’s either the tank or the bladder. However, the bladder seems to hold air, as I was able to pump in some extra pressure with a bicycle pump. (It had previously been about 15 lbs lower)
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Can anyone tell me how to determine this for sure, and then what course of action to take?

If I need a new tank, (I’m considering an Amtrol, as they use a diaphram, not a bladder) can I legally put it in myself?
(No problems with selling the house later? I’ve heard some horror stories about this kind of thing.)

Also: The existing tank is huge, compared to what I’ve seen on Youtube. It does not say how many gallons but it's over 5' tall and 18" + across. How many gallons is typically recommended for a residential house?


- THANKS.

[David L Morse]

More than likely the bladder has ruptured. When that happens water fills most of the air space leaving you with very little drawdown capability causing the rapid cycling. I think you need a new tank. I went through this last summer. Check the websites of the tank manufacturers for sizing information and pressure settings. Sorry, I didn't save any bookmarks.

[David V Carpenter]

What you have described may be the result of a failed, or isolated, pressure tank. Either the bladder has failed or you have a restriction in the piping leg to the tank.

It is hard to be certain because I don't know the piping layout and I am not there to watch what is going on.

If I am correct what is happening is; with one plumbing fixture open, the demand flow is small and the pump flow is comparatively large, resulting in quick run up to the max pressure shut off. With several fixtures open and a higher demand flow, the pump controller does not see shut off pressure.

With a system that does not have a functioning pressure tank you can get something like water hammer with the pump controller bouncing off max and min set points.

Hope that helps, if it doesn't maybe provide a schematic of your piping system and some more description.

[Jerome Stanek]

It sounds like your bladder is ruptured and the tank is water logged. There should be a valve stem that looks like a tire stem. shut the power off to the tank and drain it down then pump it up to 50 LBs with an air compressor and see i that will help.

[Tom M King]

This happened all of a sudden? The pump is not by chance a constant pressure (variable speed) submersible?? If answers are yes and no, then you've already received the correct advice here.

Need more specifications about the system and demand before advice on tank size.

[Allan Speers]

It sounds like your bladder is ruptured and the tank is water logged. There should be a valve stem that looks like a tire stem. shut the power off to the tank and drain it down then pump it up to 50 LBs with an air compressor and see i that will help.

I thought you're supposed to pump it up to the pre-charge pressure, no? Anyway, is there really a chance this will help, given the specific symptoms? (even pressure with several faucets open) If so I'll try it, but it's a PITA to drain the tank (the floor is sealed due to a radon problem) so I'd rather just do it once.

[Tom M King]

http://inspectapedia.com/water/Water...r_Quantity.php

[Tom M King]

http://inspectapedia.com/water/Pump_...cle_Causes.php

[Allan Speers]

This happened all of a sudden? The pump is not by chance a constant pressure (variable speed) submersible?? If answers are yes and no, then you've already received the correct advice here.

Need more specifications about the system and demand before advice on tank size.

Yes, all of a sudden (a week ago)

No, it's not a submersible pump. - I dunno what kind of pump it is, but it's only 1/2 HP, and looks like a deep well jet pump.
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So is everyone saying it must be the tank, and not the switch?

Also, again, should I be worried about trying to install this myself? It seems pretty straight forward, esp with a pre-charged tank.

[Allan Speers]

http://inspectapedia.com/water/Water...r_Quantity.php

Great resource, thanks! I'm going to read this now.

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UPDATE: I've read the main page, and it's confusing because there seems to be two completely different instructions, depending on wether your tank has a bladder or a diaphram. I don't know which I have, as I can't find it anywhere on the internet. It's a "Clayton Mark Air Separator" with no model number. Evidently this company no longer exists.

Another issue / symptom: I read that you can usually tell if your tank is waterlogged by tapping on both the top & bottom, and if the top sounds dull then it's waterlogged. - But my tank does NOT sound dull anywhere, even the bottom. It rings like a bell. I think perhaps the outer metal shell doesn't actually touch the inside, so the "tap" test doesn't work.

So I'm sorta' stumped.

[Jim Dwight]

It is very easy to know if the surge tank is the issue - which sees likely. You should have a tire type valve, the same one you apparently pumped air into. Push the valve, like you want to relieve pressure, and watch what comes out. If it includes water, the bladder is bad and you need a tank.

I don't know what the rules are where you live but where I am you are OK working on your own house. This is also a very easy job, especially if it is hooked up with plastic piping. I put one in our current house right after we moved in. Hauling the tank home and the old one away is the worst part. You can google up how big you need. Mine is noticeably smaller than the water heater and was consistent with our house size and the 3 bathrooms we have. It works fine. If you do it yourself, I wouldn't advertise that if you sell the house, however. Buyers will be understandably leery. But if you don't tell them and do it right, there is no way for them to be worried.

[Allan Speers]

It is very easy to know if the surge tank is the issue - which sees likely. You should have a tire type valve, the same one you apparently pumped air into. Push the valve, like you want to relieve pressure, and watch what comes out. If it includes water, the bladder is bad and you need a tank.
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Yep. Lots of rusty water came streaming out. Almost no air at all. Looks like everybody was correct.

Thanks.

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So ...... does anyone have a favorite brand of water tank? So far I'm considering the Amtrol WX series, and the Pentair Well Mate, but too many choices & design differences ... ughh.

[Ole Anderson]

And with a 1/2 horse pump, you don't need one as big as you have. Most manufacturers offer a bladder style tank of about 32 gallon capacity, about 15" in diameter and 4 feet tall. I just installed this one in my son's home and he has a 1 hp submersible and a lawn irrigation system. Works fine. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Wor...T32B/202846484. If your pressure controller looks old and corroded, replace it too, they are inexpensive.

[Mark Blatter]

Going from memory, which is always suspect, I think you want the pump to run at least a minute per cycle, though I always felt that longer was better. I lived with a well / septic system for almost 20 years and preferred to have an oversized pressure tank. That way the pump would cycle less frequently, but run longer when it did run. It is typically was the cycling that wore out the pump, and not the running, though if you have sand in the well, the blades will wear out no matter what.

Here is a web page that will help you calculate what size tank you need.

http://www.ruralwaterresources.com/l...tank-settings/

[Lee Schierer]

Yep. Lots of rusty water came streaming out. Almost no air at all. Looks like everybody was correct.

Thanks.

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So ...... does anyone have a favorite brand of water tank? So far I'm considering the Amtrol WX series, and the Pentair Well Mate, but too many choices & design differences ... ughh.

As a temporary fix you can pump in some air and the tank will work for a while until the water absorbs the air. You want the tank full of air when empty for best results. When you start the pump it will push water into the tank compressing the air until the pressure reaches your shut off point. WHe you open a faucet you should get a good amount of water out before teh pump starts. This is a temporary fix not a long term one.