So so frustrating...............

[Jebediah Eckert]

Well I have been trying to improve my sharpening recently. I have the Shapton pro stones (1500, 5000, and 8000) and a fairly recently purchased Atoma 400 for flattening. Tonight I decided to flatten the backs of a new set of Lie Nielsen bevel chisels. I watched the LN sharpening video with Deneb and went with that method.

I started with the 8000 to see how flat they were then dropped to the 5000. They weren't flat enough (I don't think) for the 5000 so I went to the 1500. I did all the backs on the 1500 and seemed to get a nice flat even scratch pattern. I even purchased a cheap lighted loop for close inspection. I then did them all on the 5000 and achieved a nice even haze. On the small chisels there were even some small spots of a mirror polish on the back.

I should also add every time or two down the stone I have been flattening, rinsing, and was careful to clean up between grits.

The problem became visible when I went to the 8000 stone. It would seem like it started to get a polish but then the more I worked at it the haze came back. I don't know if I'm putting enough pressure or too much pressure. I can sit there all day and all I get is a haze. Not even close to a mirror polish. It was "shinier" in spots off the 5000.

I am very careful for cross contamination, flattening, and rinsing the stone. I am at a complete loss. I don't think anyone can diagnosis my problem just reading this I'm just more venting. I have absolutely no clue what to try and will probably just give up for the night. The only problem is I probably won't be too "inspired" to try again as I have no idea why I should expect different results. I don't know what to change.

I keep the pressure very steady when working the stone. I'm just not sure, maybe too much down pressure or not enough?

Why should it start to mirror polish on 5000, and when I continue it goes back to haze?

The method is basically work the chisel forward and back on 1/3 stone up and back, then 2/3 up and back on stone, then length chisel back up and down on the stone the lengthwise of the stone.

[Jim Koepke]

Someone is sure to be able to explain this better than me.

My first thought is about the possibility of the stones getting mixed up. I have become used to my stones an could tell one from the other by how fast they cut and how much of a burr can be raised. The coarser the stone, usually the faster it will cut and the bigger the burr for the same number of strokes.

I would also ask if you have a magnifier strong enough to look at the edges as you sharpen them.

My experience is similar between my 4000 and 8000 stone. A few strokes on a strop tends to put a mirror finish on my blades after honing on the 8000 stone.

The two stones are different brands. The 4000 is a bit harder and not as much slurry is produced during use as is on the 8000.

If you have ever seen a Veritas blade from Lee Valley, you may notice they look cloudy or hazy. They really do not improve

In this thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...on-plane-irons

The OP has the mirror edge going back and forth between grits. It may be that you are getting scratches with the 5000 stone that have sides of the valleys smooth so it looks like a reflective surface when it is actually a lot of mirrored surfaces at the same angle.

Polish or not, the real test isn't in the looking, it is in the cutting.

Besides shaving with your blades, which I do not suggest if you are not accustomed to shaving with a straight razor, there are a few test for determining sharpness.

Many people like slicing a light piece of paper. The blade should be pushed into the paper, not sliced across. If you can shave slivers off of a piece of receipt paper, then you are doing pretty good. Once you get this, try a few slicing motions to see if there are any snags. My pocket knifes get this test all the time as they are used for opening mail.

Some test by paring end grain of soft wood. A sharp blade can raise a very thin shaving without opening up spaces in the end grain.

Here is a video of a razor being tested via the "hanging hair" method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF-ayPofWpY

jtk

[Jebediah Eckert]

Thanks Jim, I appreciate your help as always. I definitely did not mess up the grits, although I can see that happening, but I know not in this case. I do have a lit magnifier and the edge looks good, or at least what I think it should look like. I'm going to checkout the hair sharp video but I doubt I'm there.

I just dont don't understand why the mirror comes and goes. I did try the receipt paper test and I can push it into the paper and cut. With a slicing motion there doesn't feel like it has any hang ups. I took a very thin shaving off of pine end grain and it left a smooth surface, I'm not sure if that meant anything or not. I free handed the bevel (no micro bevel) for the sharpening but I normally use a guide.

maybe somebody can comment on a few things I'm sure I read in threads but can't remember now-

-how often should I rinse the grey slurry/metal off the Shapton stones?
-how much down pressure to use (I go light enough to get it to move but it feels like it's almost floating on the water)
-when freehand the bevel I establish the bevel and pull back only. Sometimes it goes smooth and other times if kind of bounces like being on the rumble strips on the side of the road, am I doing that wrong?

Thanks

[Curt Putnam]

Can't help much except to say that I have read, on several occasions that waterstones may not produce a polish. Just as the backs of Veritas blades come smoother than you will ever get them but they are hazy.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Yeah, I remember reading that also but I seem to get it in spurts. The LN video is using the same chisels and stones and those produce a mirror. I guess they are sharp enough but frustrating to not be able to figure it out. A bunch of the threads emphasize the mirror finish, and I can't get it. I have to be doing something wrong. I will soak and scrub the stones of any cross contamination but I don't think that's it, I am pretty careful with that.

[Allen Jordan]

I also had trouble flattening chisel backs with the same set of stones. It was like they loaded up with swarf, the chisels started sticking to the swarfey patches, and nothing abraded evenly. I found it helped a bit if I added a drop of liquid dish soap into my spray bottle for lubricant. Also, try building up a little bit of swarf and keep rubbing over that patch... you can polish beyond the rated grit that way (might be the more mirror-like spots you're getting now).

[Robert Engel]

Are the grits on a Shapton ceramic stone similar to a water stone?

I always get a polished surface off an 8000 grit water stone so this is a mystery to me.

Are you using plain water on the stones?

I would just follow up with some stropping.

[Stanley Covington]

A hazy appearance is not necessarily a bad thing.

The grit particles generated by a stone in use have lots of sharp corners when fresh, and make deep, straight-sided V scratches of more or less uniform width. These reflect light uniformly giving the appearance of a mirror finish. But this is perception only and has little or nothing to do with sharpness.

An example is natural Japanese sharpening stones, especially the finish stones, which tend to produce rounder particles with fewer sharp corners. Instead of cutting straight-sided V shaped scratches in the steel, they make scratches with more rounded sides. These rounder scratches disperse light, creating a hazier finish. Many people, including me, find this hazy appearance more attractive than mirror, especially in laminated steel plane and chisel blades. It certainly looks better on sword blades.

I suspect that, since you are working with such care and a light touch, the particles generated by your Shapton stones are sharp at first, creating a mirror finish, but are breaking down and becoming rounder with use, creating rounder scratches and hazier finish.

I don't know for certain which appearance, mirror or hazy, corresponds to a superior cutting edge, but I suspect that scratches produced by rounder particles are tad tougher, and consequently that a hazy blade tends to stay sharper a few strokes longer. Just my opinion.

Anyway, my point is that failure to produce a mirror finish does not in any way mean your sharpening skills are deficient, or that the blade's sharpness is less than it could be.

[ken hatch]

Thanks Stanley,

You saved a lot of thinking on how to say just what you posted and inputting it on the keyboard.

The mirror finish has been over sold.

ken

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks Stanley,

You saved a lot of thinking on how to say just what you posted and inputting it on the keyboard.

The mirror finish has been over sold.

ken

You're welcome. And you're right about the mirror finish.

As you know, here in Japan, the hazy, flawless finish is the gold standard of sharpening. I can't figure out why the mirror finish is thought to be desireable nowadays, especially in light of the negative things it often connotates.

What's your dog's name, and does he have a favorite brand of sharpening stone.

[Prashun Patel]

I have that 8000g Shapton. To be clear, tho, it's the green one. Yours is green, right?

I am lazy about rinsing, but notice that I can get mirrors on my microbevels pretty easily on that 8000.

How hard are you pressing? I get better results on all sharpening media by letting the grit do its work, and not pressing hard. For honing, I work it until I start seeing black slurry, then a little more. I don't try to overwork it or press hard at all.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Thank you for the responses. With all the sharpening threads I have read I never picked up on the "mirror" finish isn't always the goal. I guess every video I have watched always goes for it and achieves the mirror.

The funny part is the bevels WERE mirror after a few freehand passes on the 8000. I did go a couple of passes on a strop but it did nothing for the polish on the back. I am hesitant to go any farther because I do remember reading that can cause a "dub" edge that is very difficult to remove by hand. I'm not sure what that is but know it should be avoided. I know there are man many theories on this sharpening thing but I just want a basic sharpen for now and will worry about stuff like this later if needed.

And thank you Allen on sharing your experiences with the Shapton's. I may just take your tips and give a quick go at one to see what happens. How often did you find yourself rinsing off the stone, or should I don't be doing that and letting build up?

Stanley, a response from Tokyo, super cool.......

[Jebediah Eckert]

I have that 8000g Shapton. To be clear, tho, it's the green one. Yours is green, right?

I am lazy about rinsing, but notice that I can get mirrors on my microbevels pretty easily on that 8000.

How hard are you pressing? I get better results on all sharpening media by letting the grit do its work, and not pressing hard. For honing, I work it until I start seeing black slurry, then a little more. I don't try to overwork it or press hard at all.

Thanks Prashun, yes stone is light green. Do you finish your chisel backs off on the 8000, or do you use another method? The freehand bevel did get a mirror finish with a few pull strokes on the 8000 no issues. A black stripe appeared on the stone after 2-3 pull strokes and I may have done 4-5 total and it produced a mirror on the bevel. I have been rinsing off the stone once I completely work the whole thing but maybe that works against me?

[ken hatch]

You're welcome. And you're right about the mirror finish.

As you know, here in Japan, the hazy, flawless finish is the gold standard of sharpening. I can't figure out why the mirror finish is thought to be desireable nowadays, especially in light of the negative things it often connotates.

What's your dog's name, and does he have a favorite brand of sharpening stone.

Stanley,

That's Sweet Maggie Dog. She's my shop dog and doesn't care which stone as long as it is a natural stone, Sam the Wonder Dog comes into the shop when he hears the bandsaw running. The bandsaw is the sound of rawhide bones being cut. Nothing brings as much joy to life as a good dog.

ken

[Prashun Patel]

Ah, now that I think about it, you are right: I don't get a mirror on the BACKS of my chisels. They are hazy off the 8000. I have a 3000grit diamond wheel on my Worksharp that produces a mirror finish. The 8000 dulls it back up. Even if I rinse the 8000 I can't get a mirror on the back. But I don't try that hard and it's never bothered me. I just figured I wasn't working hard or meticulously enough. I don't WANT to have a sharpening regimen that requires me to be too meticulous. I just want to be fast.

For my microbevels on chisels, I find the mirror (in addition to being easy to achieve on my Shapton 8000) is a useful visual indication that I've done enough. Like you, I prefer to freehand hone my chisels.