Hot Hide Glue Question

[Mike Henderson]

When I do a project such as a chest of drawers, I usually use half blind dovetails to attach the bottom to the sides. I'm attempting to learn more about hot hide glue and want to do a project using it. Note the word "hot" for the hide glue. I'm not looking to use liquid hide glue, I want to use hot hide glue like our ancestors did.

When you apply glue to half blind dovetails, it takes a long time. I apply glue to the insides of the sockets and to the sides of the tails - on both sides. The tap the bottom on to the sides, and clamp up and down, and across the bottom to pull everything tight. And, of course, the top has to be addressed in this glue up, also, which takes more time applying glue.

How do you do such a glue up with hot hide glue? The glue will cool by the time I get it applied to all the parts. I could apply the glue, let it cool, then come back with a heat gun and warm up each joint before tapping the joint together. But two issues:

1. After I warm up the joint, I can tap the tails into the sockets and they'll be held there as soon as the glue cools. But I like to clamp across the bottom to pull the sides in tight to the bottom so that the dovetails look "tight". While this doesn't matter much on the bottom of a chest, it will matter for visible dovetails so I want to figure out how to solve this problem.

2. Our ancestors didn't have heat guns. How did they address this issue?

Your advice and suggestions will be appreciated.

Mike

[paul cottingham]

Honstly, a little urea in the glue increases open time. For most projects that require open time, i use Old Brown Glue. It has the urea in it, and my hands are so buggered, i need the extra open time.

[Dave Anderson NH]

For dovetails I only apply the glue quickly and heavily to the sockets since most of the strength of any dovetail is mechanical. I also make sure the parts to be joined are quite warm. I place them by my woodstove much as our ancestors did, but you could use an electric blanket as some of my friends with cold shops do. Equally important Mike is having everything organized, arranged for quick access, and ready to go before the brush leaves the glue pot.

Edit: I still keep an old hair dryer handy just in case.

[jamie shard]

I remember seeing >somewhere?< a old film of a cabinet maker dipping in a drawer side and front into a big pot of hot hide glue and then slapping the pieces together. So that's one approach. I suppose after it gels, the extra could be scraped off and put back in the double boiler.

[Warren Mickley]

Your big mistake is doing all four corners at once. Instead put the bottom on the bench (or the floor) in front of you. Then put glue on one side and put it together. Then put glue on the other side and put it together. You now have the bottom on the bench with the two sides straight up. Apply glue to the remaining two joints and put together. So you are doing the gluing in three stages, none of which should take a whole minute.

I have seen some guys who insist that they need 30 minutes or even more "open time" for some "complex glue up". We don't work that way with hide glue.

[Mike Henderson]

I remember seeing >somewhere?< a old film of a cabinet maker dipping in a drawer side and front into a big pot of hot hide glue and then slapping the pieces together. So that's one approach. I suppose after it gels, the extra could be scraped off and put back in the double boiler.

You bring up a good point. I forget that with hide glue it's not critical to keep the glue off of the non-joint surfaces. I need to change my thinking when working with hot hide glue.

Your big mistake is doing all four corners at once. Instead put the bottom on the bench (or the floor) in front of you. Then put glue on one side and put it together. Then put glue on the other side and put it together. You now have the bottom on the bench with the two sides straight up. Apply glue to the remaining two joints and put together. So you are doing the gluing in three stages, none of which should take a whole minute.

I have seen some guys who insist that they need 30 minutes or even more "open time" for some "complex glue up". We don't work that way with hide glue.

I understand. But I don't think I can put glue on all of the dovetail surfaces and get the joint together in a minute. I'll have to practice.

Mike

[Robert LaPlaca]

Mike, I don't have any silver bullets here, but a bit of urea or salt (5 -10% by weight) will slow down the gelling and get you like 3 or 4 minutes of open, the other suggestion of glueing in stages is also another good technique.. And lastly, get yourself some of those contractor halogen work lights at a big box store, on high they produce enough radiant heat to slow down the gelling and keeps the parts warm..

Or use Olde Brown glue..

[paul cottingham]

Seriously. Old Brown Glue. Lots of open time. Heat it like your home made stuff.

[Mike Henderson]

Seriously. Old Brown Glue. Lots of open time. Heat it like your home made stuff.

Thanks for your suggestions, Paul and Robert. But, for reasons of my own, I want to learn how to work with traditional Hot Hide Glue (HHG).

My goal is not to just be able to glue furniture together but to understand how our ancestors worked. And to do that, I need to work with the kind of glue they used. I know they could have used urea and/or salt but I want to start with standard hide glue.

Already, I can see that working with it requires thinking about the glue and the glue-up process differently.

Mike

[And thanks, Robert, for the idea about the work lamps. I have some of them.]

[ken hatch]

Thanks for your suggestions, Paul and Robert. But, for reasons of my own, I want to learn how to work with traditional Hot Hide Glue (HHG).

My goal is not to just be able to glue furniture together but to understand how our ancestors worked. And to do that, I need to work with the kind of glue they used. I know they could have used urea and/or salt but I want to start with standard hide glue.

Already, I can see that working with it requires thinking about the glue and the glue-up process differently.

Mike

[And thanks, Robert, for the idea about the work lamps. I have some of them.]

Different gram strength hide glue have different open times. Check out TFWW's web page on hide glue.

ken

[Mike Henderson]

Different gram strength hide glue have different open times. Check out TFWW's web page on hide glue.

ken

Yes, I have read their page - and everything else I can find on the Internet. Also ordered a book on hide glue. I'm starting with 192 gram strength.

Mike

[ken hatch]

Yes, I have read their page - and everything else I can find on the Internet. Also ordered a book on hide glue. I'm starting with 192 gram strength.

Mike

Mike,

I use 251 for most applications but I also glue up like Warren suggested. Because 251 gram strength will make good "rub" joints and I draw bore when able i will use very few clamps during the glue up, usually only to pull a case square if needed.

ken

P.S. Good on you for trying to figure out how the "old guys" did it. I find it will usually be the best way.

P.P.S. I also find working that way takes all the pressure off, glue or draw bore a joint, have a cup of tea, do the next joint, repeat until there are no more joints.

[Keith Mathewson]

I use hot hide glue with increasing regularity and I now use it thinner than when I first started. Thicker glue gels too fast and doesn't improve the strength. On dovetails I apply glue as Warren suggests but the biggest factor in open time is temp. All that said when I visit museums I notice that the dovetails on the old classics would be considered pretty bad by todays standards. Of the three pics shown two are from a piece in the Met Museum, the front anyone would be proud of but it dovetails aren't so pretty and it's not because they lacked talent.

[jamie shard]

Mike, another approach for hot hide glue and dovetails is "the wedged dovetail". http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...and-winterthur In particular look down in the comments. Hope this helps!

[Zach Dillinger]

I use hot hide glue with increasing regularity and I now use it thinner than when I first started. Thicker glue gels too fast and doesn't improve the strength. On dovetails I apply glue as Warren suggests but the biggest factor in open time is temp. All that said when I visit museums I notice that the dovetails on the old classics would be considered pretty bad by todays standards. Of the three pics shown two are from a piece in the Met Museum, the front anyone would be proud of but it dovetails aren't so pretty and it's not because they lacked talent.

Those are beautiful. After all, the piece is still here...