inset doors with face frame cabinets

[Peter Quinn]

This is close. But unless you like 1" stiles, it doesn't really work. Or, you have to burn up a bunch of material and put another partition in if you have a set of doors hinging on the same stile. I suppose if you were building modular stuff it'd work, but gross.

We use a very similar system though. A Blum full crank hinge with a plate mounted to the box work. On inset we typically use 1-7/8" stock for stiles. When you have a 3/4" partition behind that face frame, that leaves you with an 1-1/8" of placement options. Blum sells those cast plates in 0,3,6,9, and 18mm. We buy the 6,9,18mm plates. With a 3/8 pocket behind the frame, you use the 9mm plate, with a 3/4" pocket you use the 18mm plate. 3/8" pocket plus the 3/4" partition plus a 3/4" pocket = 1-7/8" Any variation of those numbers works, but to keep it simple your box material and hardware options have to add up to whatever your face frame is. When we first started doing inset, we used 2" stiles. 2" doesn't add up to anything with the hardware with 3/4" material and you end up using spacers. Which look terrible, and looks like a kindergarten class built the cabinets. The trick here is to keep your head out of your behind and when you lay out your boxwork you do so with this in mind. At first you'll feel a bit retarded, but once you get your brain functioning it's pretty easy. I whine at the Blum rep every time they come into the shop that they don't make a 1/2" or 5/8" plate. I also whine that there is no cam adjustment on those plates. They are adjustable, but it's a pain in the rear compared to just twisting a screw for height adjustment. Supposedly they have something in the works, but I've heard those lies from salesman before.

The plates that mount behind the frame are terrible. We use them only when there is no other option. Doors in a corner where the boxwork goes all the way back and there is no partition or end to attach the hardware too is about the only time. Using as long a screw as possible, and a course one is about the best you can do. They also suck to mount. We have jigs and we pre-drill the frames before they are on the box, but you still have to stick you head in the opening to find the ding dong holes. They do have cam adjustment on the plate, so that's awesome. The behind the frame plates require a half crank hinge.

I'd have to check, but I think we're drilling inset stuff at 21.5mm regardless of it being a half crank or full crank hinge.

I've screwed around and built stuff every single way mentioned in this thread. Not a fan. My system is the easiest for me, but that's me, and your experience may be different. I can understand my system not being a good fit with the larger amount of different pieces you need if you are buying hardware for one project at a time. We don't. We buy plates usually a few hundred at a time and hinges by the 250 case, so it's not a big deal if we don't burn them up on one job, it'll get used on the next. Our purchasing of hardware is limited by the amount we can physically store. I wish I had a place to plop a pallet of hinges to get a larger price break, but we don't have the spare space.

Martin, one of us is misunderstanding the other. 1" stiles? I'm talking full custom cabs, floor to ceiling, wall to wall, average stiles are 2" plus 2x 1/4" applied bead, so 2 1/2" total stile width, sometimes 2 1/4 if no beads, so you have two sides of adjacent cabinets, 1/8" set back x2, 1/2" ply packing between cases.....works like a charm. Field joints at rail/ stile made with dominos, so on a typical run one cab has two stiles attached, next has one, etc. Often break fronts or slight jogs in plan off set special cabinets like China cabs or secrataries, built in dressers etc, so field joints are minimized and long runs get broken up visually. Not in one million years are we making narrow stiles and screwing face frames together on install. At that point we are competing with Home Depot and cabinet factories and loosing.

I'm discussing what I have done, not what I have chosen. Generally the architects or designers my company works for have way more to say about case construction than I feel they probably should, it can lead to some pretty strange solutions to simple problems. I wish they would focus on exterior aesthetics and elevations, leave the case construction to people that actually know something about it. Our first criteria in every case is what does it look like when you open the door. Blocks, packing, interupred stops are frowned upon in interiors except drawer banks which are not visible in use. We use the method I stated above for full rooms like libraries, dressing rooms, walk in closets, offices, etc in which generally 3-4 walls are covered entirely, looks seamless, leaves them wondering how we got it to fit. Sometimes it leaves me wondering how we got it to fit too!

[Martin Wasner]

Are you saying they ran two partitions per stile? If you've got a 2" stile, 1/8" pocket, then a 3/4" partition, you'll have an 1-1/8" pocket remaining on the other side.

I must not be understanding. I kinda feel that they're doubling up the partitions though. That seems like a huge waste of material. But, with my manipulation of the hardware I'd max out with a 2-1/4" stile, so anything over that I'd have to double up the partition. I'm not counting split cabinets for field assembly.

[Peter Quinn]

typical stile detail.pdf

Are you saying they ran two partitions per stile?

Yes, pretty much. Here's a quick sketch of a typical stile. Each case is independent. Two sides, left and right, top and bottom for uppers, bottom and stringers for lowers, or solid top deck if appropriate or specified. So anywhere the cases are split, they meet at a face frame, you have two case sides back to back. In the case of large boxes, like say a wall of built in wardrobes for a dressing room or walk in closet (last one I did was most of the size of the first floor of my house). Under no circumstances are two stiles EVER screwed together with a seam in the field. Just not allowed, unless its full overlay frameless, but thats a whole different thing obviously. In the sketch, the bead is in red, the stile is blue, case sides are brown, in this case it requires 3/4" packing between the two use sides. If this were a three case run, say a 12' wall with 3 four foot openings roughly, the center case would have two stiles attached, the left case would have its left stile attached, right case the right stile attached, rails would be domino'd in the shop, sanded, finished, field assembled. You open the door....nice clean look. Face frame to case joint is obscured. I don't care for 9mm or 12mm plates, starts to have the same problems as those face frame clips, bad fulcrum, too much leverage, so that 1/8 set back works well. Some architects shrink the frames which shrinks the packing. Lots of them want 1 1/2" frames, which look silly IMO on huge cases in big houses with 8" crown moldings and 10 foot ceilings....but its their dollar. IN those cases we use 1 5/8" frames (because they don't own rulers!), 1/16" set back, add a shim behind zero plates.

[Bill Adamsen]

Peter ... that's an approach I've used as well. Or without the blocking and with side-to-side carcases. I cut the bead in and use the Hoffmann notcher (you can also use a sharp chisel). But I think what you are trying to illustrate is that the plate would be a zero or 3mm ... or use a shim or thicker plate. Just get it to work. Pretty straightforward.

[Scott Welty]

Wow! What a ton of information. Let me see if I can boil down to MY understanding. 1. The fact that the door is inset in a face frame cabinet is not that different from inset in frameless cabinet as long as the overlap of face frame into cabinet is not too severe (1/16?). 2. If I set that overlap to some number then I can find a matching mounting plate so that my door ends up with the desired gap to the faceframe. 3. I want to do this without shims or blocks in the case and it sounds like a proper base plate can allow this to happen.

Am I on it now?

Thanks gang!
Scott

[Peter Quinn]

Wow! What a ton of information. Let me see if I can boil down to MY understanding. 1. The fact that the door is inset in a face frame cabinet is not that different from inset in frameless cabinet as long as the overlap of face frame into cabinet is not too severe (1/16?). 2. If I set that overlap to some number then I can find a matching mounting plate so that my door ends up with the desired gap to the faceframe. 3. I want to do this without shims or blocks in the case and it sounds like a proper base plate can allow this to happen.

Am I on it now?

Thanks gang!
Scott

Yes sir! Pick some off set of sides/frame that equals one of the available plates, 3mm, 6mm, 9mm, 12mm.....for me the smaller the better to make the lever acton on the screws less severe if door is opened too far...like my kids are find of.....then it behaves just like frameless full inset.

[Jim Becker]

The bottom line...use the correct hinges, follow the fitting instructions for them and you'll be fine. All of my cabinetry here in this end of our home is face frame, inset doors and "Euro" type hinges. That's my preference for cabinetry.

[David Brockington]

typical stile detail.pdf

Yes, pretty much. Here's a quick sketch of a typical stile. Each case is independent. Two sides, left and right, top and bottom for uppers, bottom and stringers for lowers, or solid top deck if appropriate or specified. So anywhere the cases are split, they meet at a face frame, you have two case sides back to back. In the case of large boxes, like say a wall of built in wardrobes for a dressing room or walk in closet (last one I did was most of the size of the first floor of my house). Under no circumstances are two stiles EVER screwed together with a seam in the field. Just not allowed, unless its full overlay frameless, but thats a whole different thing obviously. In the sketch, the bead is in red, the stile is blue, case sides are brown, in this case it requires 3/4" packing between the two use sides. If this were a three case run, say a 12' wall with 3 four foot openings roughly, the center case would have two stiles attached, the left case would have its left stile attached, right case the right stile attached, rails would be domino'd in the shop, sanded, finished, field assembled. You open the door....nice clean look. Face frame to case joint is obscured. I don't care for 9mm or 12mm plates, starts to have the same problems as those face frame clips, bad fulcrum, too much leverage, so that 1/8 set back works well. Some architects shrink the frames which shrinks the packing. Lots of them want 1 1/2" frames, which look silly IMO on huge cases in big houses with 8" crown moldings and 10 foot ceilings....but its their dollar. IN those cases we use 1 5/8" frames (because they don't own rulers!), 1/16" set back, add a shim behind zero plates.

I’m in the process of building my kitchen: face frames with inset doors and drawers, so this has been a super helpful thread.

Peter - I really like how you described treating the stiles. I’m wondering how, in those situations, you typically treat the top and bottom rails. Especially the bottom rails - do you also leave 1/8 setback on the bottom rail?

In my case, I don’t want a “lip” on the bottom, as it tends to collect dust and grime. I guess I could flush trim the edge of the bottom rail with a router, but I’m using pre-finished plywood for the cases, and I’m a bit worried about cleaning up the corners cleanly without scratching. Or I could lower the rail so some of the ply shows (which would then function as a stop), but then I’d have to edge band the plywood on the bottom of the case, which feels a bit like it’s defeating the point of having a face frame.

So very curious… what do you typically do in your shop?

Thanks! - David

[Sam Murdoch]

I agree that a bottom lip is a nuisance. I flush my face frame bottom rail to the top face of all horizontals (and to the sides as well) but in this case and to answer your specific question - flush is one alternative. The top rail of the face frame ends up flush with the top of the cabinet and a 3-1/2" to 4" spreader (rather than a full top)/ You can then, if needed, attach a door stop on the bottom edge of the face frame.

[Martin Wasner]

We do the lip. Plywood is such garbage nowadays that getting it flush consistently across the deck and everything else would come with a suicide note. Plus, I'm pretty sure my finisher would strangle me for adding more headaches to his life having to either stain right up to that line or having to tape flawlessly on painted stuff.

[Sam Murdoch]

We do the lip. Plywood is such garbage nowadays that getting it flush consistently across the deck and everything else would come with a suicide note. Plus, I'm pretty sure my finisher would strangle me for adding more headaches to his life having to either stain right up to that line or having to tape flawlessly on painted stuff.

This is a good job for attaching face frames with biscuits and glue. As for the paint issue - my cabinet boxes are typically prefinished maple ply. I add a very slight (1/16" or less) round over/quirk to the ply edge and the face frame edge that will align with that plywood edge. A quick wipe of the ply with padlaquer or even Watco makes the ply quirk blend in and the 2 quirks coming together make a perfect paint break. Even works well if the cabinet interior is a painted color - different from the FF.

I usually finish the FF off the box but even in the case of doing a final coat one the FF is attached it is easy enough to paint without making tracks in the cabinet. The other added bonus of the quirk is that it hides any slight discrepancies of flush/not flush. Yes, the ply thickness is irregular and alignment "perfection" might vary but with the 2 little cheeks of the a$$ coming together you really need to be OCD to notice any variance.

Though this method is easier for custom or DIY cabinet construction, we used to do this in a custom/production shop too, where time was expensive. Pre painting the face frame, after it was fitted and aligned with biscuits to the ganged up cabinets, made this a very clean and efficient system.

[Martin Wasner]

As always, different strokes for different folks. We couldn't prefinish or frames because of how they interact with paneled ends or finished ends. We miter our paneled ends on, and finished ends get flushed out.

The machining errors from plywood drives me absolutely insane. I've seen sheets vary close to a 1/16" in the same sheet. I'm hoping I can come up with or find some clever machining techniques to use when I finally drop a cnc in place. Anything to save time on the benches.

Open cabinets we do flush out decks.

[Justin Ludwig]

I flush the deck and lip the tops. I prefinish my FFs before installation unless it's a crazy kitchen with lots of applied moldings and appliques. Then I have to endure the masking party. Frog tape is your friend. Masking cabinets is definitely an art form. I don't enjoy finishing. But I enjoy even less, the quality of work from the local mouth breathing painters.

[Sam Murdoch]

As always, different strokes for different folks. We couldn't prefinish or frames because of how they interact with paneled ends or finished ends. We miter our paneled ends on, and finished ends get flushed out.

The machining errors from plywood drives me absolutely insane. I've seen sheets vary close to a 1/16" in the same sheet. I'm hoping I can come up with or find some clever machining techniques to use when I finally drop a cnc in place. Anything to save time on the benches.

Open cabinets we do flush out decks.

Not being argumentative Martin just sharing - BUT - I attach my finished ends (either mitered or but joints depending on circumstances and whether 5 piece panels or slabs) as part of the face frame. These go to the spray booth as right angle assemblies. Sometimes more practical to fit everything with biscuits but leave the finished end free of the face frame until finishing. In this case tape over the biscuit slots. The face frame finished ends are all fitted and biscuited to the boxes then removed for finishing - at least priming. If hand painted, all will be installed and then finish painted - tape and quirks make this an easy job.

Yes - "different strokes". Not trying to say, my way or nothing, just offering an alternative method that has worked very well for me.

[Martin Wasner]

Yes - "different strokes". Not trying to say, my way or nothing, just offering an alternative method that has worked very well for me.

I wasn't trying to be argumentative either.

Cabinetry is a very strange business. Everybody does it very differently. The cost, price, and value of the product have nothing in common with each other. I've said this before, nobody is doing it wrong, but nobody is doing it right either.