Glowforge release

[Jerome Stanek]

And people are saying that there was no emailing of the new developments just the forum so many do not know. Dan also posted that they were changing again and will offer laser tube to the owners as others on the forum have posted that other laser manufacturers offer replacement parts including laser tubes

[Jason Hilton]

I think he might be referring to Dave's comment that I have quoted above.

Yes, I’m referring to the statement that the dates were pushed back another month that Dave made. I think maybe dave was hoping we’d take his word and not call him out. No need to throw more controversy than already exists.

[Rich Harman]

Glowforge is the biggest scam going yikes what was it 45 mil or something.Ya'll keep waiting

No, it is not a scam. There may be some elements of their operation that seem scam like, such as deciding to ship out of order to customers that are more attractive to them (is that true?), but they did not start this venture with the intent to deceive.

I *hate* how they are calling it "The 3D Laser Printer". I understand why they chose that name and I disagree strongly with their reasoning. They could have hired any number of us for some valuable input which may have prevented many of their issues, but they probably would not have listened. "We" would have given them advice that is contradictory to what their goals are. Meaning, we would have nixed may of their ideas and the end result would have been a more "regular" machine - which is not what they are after.

[Jerome Stanek]

No, it is not a scam. There may be some elements of their operation that seem scam like, such as deciding to ship out of order to customers that are more attractive to them (is that true?), but they did not start this venture with the intent to deceive.

I *hate* how they are calling it "The 3D Laser Printer". I understand why they chose that name and I disagree strongly with their reasoning. They could have hired any number of us for some valuable input which may have prevented many of their issues, but they probably would not have listened. "We" would have given them advice that is contradictory to what their goals are. Meaning, we would have nixed may of their ideas and the end result would have been a more "regular" machine - which is not what they are after.

But maybe there would be a shipped machine

[Gary Hair]

No, it is not a scam. ....... but they did not start this venture with the intent to deceive.

Just curious how you can possibly know that either of these statements are true.

[Keith Downing]

Just curious how you can possibly know that either of these statements are true.

There's no way to know someone's intent. But I would say when they got venture capitalists involved they no doubt did their due diligence (one would certainly hope anyways).

[Lee DeRaud]

There's no way to know someone's intent. But I would say when they got venture capitalists involved they no doubt did their due diligence (one would certainly hope anyways).

"Due diligence" being defined as "make sure we get our required ROI before the villagers arrive with torches and pitchforks". I'm not clear on how much difference "intent to deceive" makes to the guy with the worthless piece of paper in his hand. In the long run, he may be better off if they did intend to deceive: at least then there's some legal recourse. But the VC's will no doubt be first in line to pick over the bones.

Even without any intent to deceive, I have to wonder if, when they finally throw their hands in the air and give up, they'll use they same method to determine refund order that they're now using to determine shipping order.

[Gary Hair]

There's no way to know someone's intent.

That was exactly my point.

[Rich Harman]

Just curious how you can possibly know that either of these statements are true.

...because I know people in the same circle as the founder.

Is it possible that the whole thing is a scam, and he has also scammed/conned the people that I know? Yes, technically possible - but not reasonably so.

[Jerome Stanek]

Is it like the diamond mine deeds back in the day

[John Lifer]

Look, he had a 'working' machine when he started. It is NOTHING like what they will end up with. If it was, it would already have been produced and shipped a year ago.
If you take a step back, go to the main website and watch the videos from two years ago, and interview/sales pitch from somewhere around that time also, it APPEARS to be a great advance. Dan only shows snippets of the thing working. But several nicely produced items. Which I think with the final product, will be hard to produce.
But I was almost ready to plunk down big $ for a crappy little thing that won't be much better than the cheapest $250 ebay laser. He is THAT good of a pitchman. And getting investors to plunk down a few million wasn't hard for him.

PRODUCING a working and VIABLE product has become much more difficult. And I STILL don't think he'll succeed.

He MIGHT ship a few hundred or a thousand, but they'll be coming right back in just as fast......
If I had spent the money, I'd have asked for it back a long time ago. And it isn't just because of the delays. BTW, it wouldn't work for me as you will have to have a really good stable internet. I have stinking Satellite, and no other options... not even dialup!

Yes, just my opinion.

[Scott Shepherd]

I don't think it's a scam at all. I suspect he'll be delivering units sooner or later. I also suspect that these early buyers are of little concern to them. They are mere parts of a larger chess game he's playing. Do you really think he has a passion to be a laser manufacturer? After all, he has a documented past of various accomplishments. His pattern is he creates something, sells it for a lot of money and moves on to the next project. I also suspect this isn't any different to him. Why do I suggest these orders mean little to him? Because the end user having machines isn't important at this point. What is going to be important is that when they go out, they appear to be pretty well fine tuned, from a company standpoint. That'll get great media buzz and create a ton of excitement from potential bidders to buy the company. When they see a finely tuned project, they won't care about anything prior to that day, all they will care about is knowing that they can turn it into a billion dollar company. They'll buy the company for $500 million and he'll move on to the next great thing.

He wants to get machines to those who have supported him because that's his pattern. He's bought every review you see online. There's not one independent review that I've seen. Reddit posts have documented that "reviews" were in fact paid advertisements that looked like reviews. He's following that path again. "Let's make sure all the people that say we're awesome get machines first" just puts your cheerleaders into cheerleading mode. When it comes out, there will be so much positive press it won't be funny. You'll see the bidding war start because no one will find a single bad thing said.

So he will have taken $28 million in investments and turned that into $500 million and he'll be the golden child. It's not that hard to see when you look at the things going on.

I can't wait for the consumers to start changing tubes. Nothing is more fun that getting electrocuted while unhooking a tube......

[Dave Sheldrake]

Tubes are going to be the problem.

The push back delivery is based on "nice" posters in the forum getting first service.

It matters not what the widgit is, Scotty is right, this is about making a company worth money on paper.

When that tube dies inside a month due to heat and the user want's to replace it with a "kit" from GF...what will happen to their warranty on the rest of the machine?

Who will pay the £483 postal cost of shipping a 70lb machine from the EU back to America to have a $200 tube fitted?

The other alternative is the Muse from FSL that is getting slammed REALLY badly due to faults and problems even this short a time after release

Decent hard working folks trying to reach for a dream are going to get stiffed over this thing...

[David Somers]

Hey Dave,

Regarding the Muse....for what it is worth the sales people at our local Rockler store, a wood workers store that is carrying CNC's now along with FSL lasers, smile at you with reallllllllly thin tight lips when you ask them how they are doing with FSL. The smiles are the sort of smiles that make you take a few steps back if you know what I mean. <grin>

[Lee DeRaud]

Hey Dave,

Regarding the Muse....for what it is worth the sales people at our local Rockler store, a wood workers store that is carrying CNC's now along with FSL lasers, smile at you with reallllllllly thin tight lips when you ask them how they are doing with FSL. The smiles are the sort of smiles that make you take a few steps back if you know what I mean. <grin>

I think part of that may be that the machines are being sold online-only, but the local guys end up getting all the stupid post-sale questions.