Glowforge release

[Bill George]

Gee guys calm down.
But as software goes, I was glad I was forced to learn Corel Draw, and it is somewhat different yet the same as Photoshop, at least the older one I am using.
One quick example I recently purchased a used vinyl cutter the one in my Signature line, anyway the seller wanted $150 more for the old software (XP only) that came with it! Bull. I looked around and found some whiz bang software but alas the demo version or trial (thank God for those) was sadly lacking.
I did find one, not higher priced one and it was VinylMaster. It was so much like Corel I felt right at home and the printing or cutter interface was wonderful. Yes it is great and up to date software..... so why can't someone in the US or the Chinese come up with an a extra cost software that does not cost $2000 to purchase. I paid either $125 or $150 for the vinyl cutting/ design software. It also included drivers and interfaces for a long, long list of machines.

[Lee DeRaud]

Laser manufacturers don't seen to have UX designers.

That is probably true. The problem for you at this point is, that's not going to change no matter how much you talk about your knowledge and experience. So whatever machine you buy will be suboptimal in an area you obviously care a lot about, but again, that's not going to change so cowboy up and deal with it.

If you'll just tell us what you actually want to do with a laser, maybe those of us with real-world hands-on laser experience can help point you in the right direction and even help you through the post-purchase learning curve.

[Doug Griffith]

Just chiming in with my 2 cents. I've been an industrial designer/engineer for close to 20 years. Developed 30+ websites with custom CMS backends. Art Director for the 3rd largest comic book publisher for 10 years prior to that. The last 20 years being all self-employed contract work for hundreds of clients from mom-and-pop to Disney Imagineering to Raytheon. Oh, and I also program and operate 15 or so different NC machines at a few locations. I'm essentially a guy with roots in graphics who designs all sorts of stuff and in many cases sets up and runs first article on the client's equipment. More or less. I'm intimate with many systems and work with a wide variety of people.

That said, from my experience, there is no UI that is golden for even one instance. It is too subjective because the end-user / operator is an unknown and their brains all work differently. Some people I work with prefer to type commands in their antiquated DOS machines because it's more efficient than mouseing through a GUI. They know they can upgrade but why when it works for them and makes money. Put them in front of a GUI and they wouldn't know what to do. Put them in front of a command prompt and they kick a$$. That's an extreme example but there are right brain thinkers and left brain thinkers. Some prefer Android, some prefer Apple, some get by just fine without smartphones at all.

So... to say that the UIs for laser manufacturers are bad is subjective. Sure you don't like the way they look and think they are unintuitive. Not everyone is you though. I personally agree that most of the Chinese interfaces are god awful but I also think that the latest Epilog interface is pretty good. That's just me. I haven't worked with ULS or Trotec so have no opinion there.

Getting back to GF, I'm sure their GUI is nice and pretty targeting millenials with money to burn. That market may love their GUI but there's going to be a whole bunch of left brain thinkers that cannot stand it. Neither are wrong. "Norm" is a flexible, moving target.

Also, the best of GUIs won't educate the end user about the idiosyncrasies of lasers. They'll just be blindly pointing and clicking and expecting results. When something goes wrong, which it innevitably will, they won't know what to do. It almost scares me to think about a machine that removes the end user so much from the inner workings. Especially when it involves something as dangerous as a laser.

[Martin Raynsford]

It almost scares me to think about a machine that removes the end user so much from the inner workings. Especially when it involves something as dangerous as a laser.

I totally agree with this, in 6 months time (maybe more) there are going to be 10,000 new laser cutter users who have no idea what they have in their hands and they're being sold it like a normal laser printer, something that is safe to run in your kitchen. I'm a regular on the forum there and there are still crazy questions going up all the time about fume extraction and printing materials.

[John Noell]

Reminds me of Apple fanboys and -girls.

Yeah, I used to laugh too, but the business where I was CTO had about 45 employees, the vast majority with both a Mac and a PC on almost every desk. Work was probably split about 60% on the Mac and 40% on the PC. My tech support team kept good records and showed me that the cost of managing the PCs was double the cost of the Macs. Actual data on cost of ownership and productivity changed my mind. YMMV

[John Lifer]

I totally agree with this, in 6 months time (maybe more) there are going to be 10,000 new laser cutter users who have no idea what they have in their hands and they're being sold it like a normal laser printer, something that is safe to run in your kitchen. I'm a regular on the forum there and there are still crazy questions going up all the time about fume extraction and printing materials.

This ^ is why I said that they needed to ship a fire extinguisher with each unit. It scares me to no end. I can just see fires and recalls. In their future. Nah, I see bankruptcy before they ship because of the danger and liability.

And the chinglish interface on my laser is pretty poor. But it isn't hard to figure out once you work with it a bit. Except for the rotary.....

[Matt McCoy]

Matt won't wake up, look at his other machine he swears bysigned Ahab

Bert, "swears by" would probably be a mischaracterization. Providing my perspective (good, bad, and indifferent) of your sworn and mortal enemy, that isn't a scorched-earth policy, might be a better way.

I guess, since this is a Glowforge thread, I should also reinforce that my early enthusiasm for what Dan, his partners, and team were building was an interest in someone making a new U.S. laser that paid attention to those that had a desire to make things. If one wanted a great laser, you needed to have cash (the equivalent of a decent car), fly out to a show once or twice a year and haggle over a machine that you don't mind financing and hope you're wildly successful. Or, perhaps, one didn't want to go through the hoops and nuances of importing one from China with dongles and crummy software and hope it arrives in working order. There are recent threads, started by savvy folks, that qualify that statement.

In short, the status quo was in full effect and I had enjoyed watching cool projects come to fruition for makers, like myself, that allowed a creative person to have the tools to make things. This democratization included Edward's Shapeoko, Zach and Bart's X-Carve, 3D printers galore, and all the other cool stuff that advances desktop digital fabrication. What started off in my original thread (where did it go?) as "Hey lookie here! Isn't this neat?" spiraled into criticism over a name, that it was nothing new -- just a stock K40, it won't work, you'll have to pay for a subscription, you'll have to buy proprietary materials, it will burn housewives alive (because they can't be expected to be as clever as someone currently using a laser), it's vaporware, Dan's a liar, a con-artist, a rube, the investors (that have made millions developing hardware that's probably in your home) are dumb, and other such fist shaking. There was so much speculation, creative scenarios, and accusations that it became a constant pivot to something new with which to gather the pitchforks around.

I tend to take people at their word and I am admittedly a glass-is-half-full kind of guy, but I am clever enough to at least know what I don't know, so I was confused why a dogpile was created over things that weren't/aren't true. So I provided links, available info, examples of similar real-world tech, and other such counterpoints, thinking that there might be like-minded and curious people that would be interested. I got labeled as a fanboy, paid shill, clueless, and even an incognito plant by the great satan himself, Dan S.

So, for those following along at home, I will be very clear and remind folks:

I am disappointed that Glowforge has delayed its ship date yet again. I feel bad for those that are waiting as well as those working to pull this off. It's very hard and I respect the task they have chosen.

I did not buy a Glowforge.

I have not received compensation.

I do not think this is a suitable machine for a professional job shop or those working out of their garage/basement in the engraving business that need a fast and dependable machine.

I do hope they make it and disrupt (there it is) the laser industry. The western laser business model was developed before the internet.

If the GF is a pile of mess, I will point it out.

I do think it's too expensive at retail.

I will probably say something if I see something misleading or incorrect.

I will continue to discuss (isn't that what a forum is for?) in a polite and decent way, if anyone is up for it.

I will continue to give Bert a hard time, because he's a good guy and can take it.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Nothing wrong with optimism Matt sadly in this case anybody with a few years in and experience of more than one or two machines could see from the outset how the entire Glowforge debarcle was going to end. I'm still pretty sure it's going to come crashing down in biblical proportions once the things do actually ship and a few stay at home moms fire them up in their kitchen (or get told they can't use them in the kitchen).

I was reading on Etsy's forums the other day a few peoples posts that have paid up front for the GF, everytime they get let down or get told plain BS they simply lower their expectations to suit. It's a dam shame that so many fundamentally good people are going to be left with a plastic joke for their money when all this does crash.

[John Stevenson]

At least Jason had the balls to put his money where his mouth is before he saw the light and pulled out. For that he deserves out respect.

[Matt McCoy]

At least Jason had the balls to put his money where his mouth is before he saw the light and pulled out. For that he deserves out respect.

I'm going to let that personal shot sail on by. I do hope your day turns around for you, though.

[Jason Hilton]

At least Jason had the balls to put his money where his mouth is before he saw the light and pulled out. For that he deserves out respect.

This is completely uncalled for. Don’t take my getting a refund as equivalent to “seeing the light”, and definitely don’t assume it means I agree with you. Also it implies you only respect people who agree with you, which is sad. I don't want your respect if it's so cheap and fungible.


I still hope GlowForge pulls it out. My reason for requesting a refund was almost entirely impatience. When I bought the machine a year ago I expected it a month later, then 6 months later, and then 6 months after that. In that time my financial situation changed and buying a more-expensive-but-available-now machine is now a possibility.

[Art Mann]

Matt, your attitude reminds me of a counterproductive but pervasive attitude in our society. The idea is that companies, like politicians, should be admired for their good intentions rather than their ability to achieve worthwhile results. If it is necessary to mislead or outright lie a little bit along the way, the end justifies the means.

[Gary Hair]

and a few stay at home moms fire them up in their kitchen

Operative words - "fire" and "kitchen" - something tells me there will be plenty of talk about GF using both of those words in the same sentence. I predict that same sentence will also contain "lawsuit", "injury", "death", etc., etc.

[Matt McCoy]

Matt, your attitude reminds me of a counterproductive but pervasive attitude in our society. The idea is that companies, like politicians, should be admired for their good intentions rather than their ability to achieve worthwhile results. If it is necessary to mislead or outright lie a little bit along the way, the end justifies the means.

Art, I stated that I respect the task they have chosen, not that I admired their company. Taking a business risk can lead to innovation and I do admire those that put themselves on the line, at the risk of personal and professional grief from internet people on the sidelines, investors, backers, peers, etc. I also pointed to a couple successful roll outs that I enjoyed seeing develop, which carved (pardon the pun) out a niche market and created a cottage industry. Good intentions won't pay the bills, so you'll have to continue to be patient (or not) to see how that plays out.

I don't recall your opinion on how folks were mislead or lied to, so I have no comment on that other than I do agree that the ship dates have been blurry. I wouldn't hold it against you if you thought that was deceptive.

[John Stevenson]

This is completely uncalled for. Don’t take my getting a refund as equivalent to “seeing the light”, and definitely don’t assume it means I agree with you. Also it implies you only respect people who agree with you, which is sad. I don't want your respect if it's so cheap and fungible.


I still hope GlowForge pulls it out. My reason for requesting a refund was almost entirely impatience. When I bought the machine a year ago I expected it a month later, then 6 months later, and then 6 months after that. In that time my financial situation changed and buying a more-expensive-but-available-now machine is now a possibility.

You are right, it was cheap, perhaps I should have charged you what Glowforge wanted and then you could have bought my respect.

In fact it wasn't aimed at you personally but it's the emperors clothes syndrome. Only you and Matt could see the gold threads.
Everyone else only saw the threadbare dishcloth with the emperors arse showing.