Glowforge release

[Matt McCoy]

Stereolithography, or SLA typically is a light emitting process, not a direct, raw laser process. Selective Laser Sintering, SLS uses lasers to cure the material. SLA on the low end use elements similar (or in some cases identical) to a DLP projector. The Form1 and Form2 use a laser but the application is more along the lines of a projector and not a raw beam as in an engraver/cutter. The element projects an image of the current layer being cured, in the case of a Form a laser. The curing of the material is pretty much instantaneous. It looks like Carbon 3D has bested Form Labs with an LED based light source and an oxygen permeable window that allows for greater resolution and faster prints.



A 10 dB spl difference is generally perceived as being twice as loud. A 3 dB spl difference is about what most people could discern as a volume change. What you may be thinking is power output with relation to a 3 dB change where an increase of 3 db will require twice the power. A decibel isn't an absolute measurement, it's a ratio of power and depending on the context it could mean different things.

Thanks for the correction. That is what I was thinking.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Dalton,

I have a bismuth blend metal here that I played with trying to do a poured inlay in some wood. Not very successful, but interesting enough that I will try it again someday. Very low melting temp. Very low. In fact, low enough that hobbiests would melt it in boiling water, pour the molten metal into tiny copper tubes and then let it cool. The now solid nature of the tube now allowed the hobbiest to bend the tube as they wanted without risk of it crimping like it might have if they tried to bend it while it was hollow. Then they would melt the metal with boiling water again and pour it out of the tube. Genius!! So I got an evil idea. I broke a cheap metal spoon where the handle met the bowl. I "soldered" it back together with this metal and buffed it up. If you werent paying much attention it looked like a solid spoon. When someone asked me for coffee and I warned them that I made it pretty strong and they said "the stronger the better" I would pour their VERY hot coffee into the cup, watch them put in the spoon to add some milk or sugar, and then confirm that it was indeed strong coffee as they pulled the spoon out only to have the bowl of the spoon melted off. If your bismuth blend has a melting point that low it might be worth a try just to make a bud's jaw drop. I can't claim credit for this prank by the way. I someone else write it up in some discussions of the alloy.

Apologies for the thread jack everyone! Please continue with your GF discussion. <grin>

Fullers Metal I have some here I use for bending small bore copper tube

I actually like the idea of injection moulding (I didn't like the last mould making charge I had to pay though) so that machine looks like a bit of a giggle. I just don't get why new machines have this thing about kitchens....

I saw those pim shooters before Rich, didn't they do one that attached to a drill press as well?

Back on the GForge...guess what has just done the rounds from China? yup...a clone of the GF that is due for release mid september....

[Keith Outten]

Lets get back on topic as Dave has suggested.

[Art Mann]

Back on the GForge...guess what has just done the rounds from China? yup...a clone of the GF that is due for release mid september....

The Glowforge is an architecture based on an internet connection to a massive computer somewhere in the cloud that does the controlling of many machines simultaneously. It is easy to clone the hardware. It can't be much more than a cheap Chinese import at the price they are asking. The functionality of the machine depends entirely on some very sophisticated softare in some remote location. I doubt if there is a Chinese clone for that. Heck, I don't even think Glowforge can pull it off on a widespread basis.

[Dave Sheldrake]

The Glowforge is an architecture based on an internet connection to a massive computer somewhere in the cloud that does the controlling of many machines simultaneously. It is easy to clone the hardware. It can't be much more than a cheap Chinese import at the price they are asking. The functionality of the machine depends entirely on some very sophisticated softare in some remote location. I doubt if there is a Chinese clone for that. Heck, I don't even think Glowforge can pull it off on a widespread basis.

The one I'm looking at is indeed a cheap copy in a metal case and local software rather than cloud. The other functionality they claim is the same such as copy follow and sensor based adjustment height. Usual 35 watt glass tube the same length as the glowforge and judging by the pics of the inside no e-stop or other safety features.
The tube is machine mounted though not gantry much like the original shenhui K40 kind of things.

It looks like a bigger version of the K40 but with the added GF style extras

[Gary Hair]

The one I'm looking at is indeed a cheap copy in a metal case

Kind of ironic - a cheap clone of a cheap clone...

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

The Glowforge is an architecture based on an internet connection to a massive computer somewhere in the cloud that does the controlling of many machines simultaneously. It is easy to clone the hardware. It can't be much more than a cheap Chinese import at the price they are asking. The functionality of the machine depends entirely on some very sophisticated softare in some remote location. I doubt if there is a Chinese clone for that. Heck, I don't even think Glowforge can pull it off on a widespread basis.

My understanding is the backend of Glowforge is hosted at AWS as are many high profile start ups and well established tech companies. Developing the app and hosting structure isn't that big a deal in the big picture. The closed nature of the platform could be the achilles heel of the project. What they are doing isn't insurmountable from a software engineering perspective, or even that difficult compared to the whole of software engineering. The 3D printing sector has been doing various implementations of this sort of idea though most have the option to run the machine without an active connection.

A good example of a large company doing this is the Autodesk Spark platform and the Ember SLA printer. Functionally it's the same thing Glowforge is doing except with a different type of machine and an open platform. By opening the platform the risks of having a bricked device are minimized, theoretically eliminated as someone else (or many others) can host the backend. It's the same model that built the Internet. The software is functionally the same thing you would have locally on your machine but housed and executed over the network. The job is rendered at the host then downloaded to the machine with the job being started once the project is loaded locally. This isn't new and others have been doing it with more complex geometries and paths in an additive 3D realm and when compared with a 2D operation like laser cutting and engraving the backend to support the Glowforge is less complex.

Dave

[Jason Hilton]

Here's a video of a public beta unit running. Noise level seems about normal for any laser...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMOdwrvTIhU

[Kim Vellore]

I met Dan and saw the machines working today at the maker faire and I would have given them $2500 without a blink of an eye if I did not already have a laser. The build quality was very impressive for the price. I am now slightly leaning towards this becoming a successful product.

Kim

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

I didn't go to Makerfaire this year but my understanding from some that stopped by the GF booth was that it's the real deal. I've seen a few clips from the show and the work product from the machine looks good. I don't think it's my cup of tea, I can't yet get over the locked in cloud only processing. My issue isn't with the cloud per se, but the proprietary nature of the platform. At this point I'd like to see the option for both local and network. The platform isn't open and if these guys tank you'll have a $2500 brick. If the platform was open I wouldn't have an problem with it as you could install locally and not have to rely on GF staying in business or some other entity could support a compatible platform.

However, many in the younger maker, college student segment don't seem to be concerned. I think some of the pushback on this thread is from a combination of the way they are marketing the device (of which the marketing in some cases is laughable), a resistance to cloud based CNC and a generational difference between the current group of young makers and the older demographic that make up this site. I'm old enough that my college aged granddaughter calls me "maker pops" but there is certainly an element of age bias in this thread whether it's knowingly or not. In urban areas it's to the point where network access is as plentiful as electricity and water.

[Dave Sheldrake]

There is already a chinese copy of the GF due for release and FSL are offering a $350 discount to anybody who cancels their GF order and buys one of FSL's machines.

[Kev Williams]

I really doubt it would be that hard for one or two souls to figure out how to divorce the machine from the internet... Pretty much how Fred Schwartz started up Quality One, by figuring out a fix for the lame electronic hardware in the otherwise bulletproof Concept 2000...

I would have to believe Dan also realizes this, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit that the instant someone even HINTS that they have a way to un-cloud the GF, he's ready to beat them to it...

[Jason Hilton]

Glowforge has already promised to open-source the firmware to ease the fear that GF going under would brick the machine. It's inevitable that some enterprising software engineer will create an offline driver for the machine. I take that as further evidence that GF is confident in their product and business model.

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

It's a violation of the TOS to use anything other than GF as the service. Reverse engineering would be a violation the DMCA as well as the EULA for GF that prohibits reverse engineering. That won't stop one off hackers from getting into it but it will stop any organized open source project or commercial project. As an example (though not the exact same thing) the current Oracle v. Google suit where Google is getting sued over using the Java API. At a minimum you'd have to hack the GF API to get a different platform to talk to a straight up GF board. The methods used are common, used in phone and Web apps. It's the use of these technologies in this application rather than the actual technologies used that make it appealing.

However, you could replace the board and use a different platform. Many DIY and kit hacker laser types do this now, particularly with the K40. There are several low cost CNC boards and open firmwares that are used. Laser cutting start up FabCreator http://www.fabcreator.com/ is using open source LaserWeb http://openhardwarecoza.github.io/LaserWeb2/ as the interface with the backend in the cloud. You can also install it locally, for example to a Raspberry Pi. I have a similar setup in an 8 bot 3D printer farm using Octoprint. http://octoprint.org/ . Doing these type of mods isn't going to be something the target market for GF is likely to do. After all, that's why they likely bought a GF in the first place.

As for Dan doing something if it starts to tank, typically (in fact pretty much every time) the VCs take possession of the IP if things get dodgy. Given how much and who has funded them at this point it's highly unlikely he would own the IP if things went sideways. I wish them the best but until they start delivering and get a year or two under their belt it's not a slam dunk. Makerbot is a pretty good example of what can happen to a high flying company over a few years when the chips are down.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Laser cutting start up FabCreator

I know Bonne and Saskia quite well, very well designed piece of kit too.They have really gone the full 9 yards on making sure it's safe and CE compliant as well.

Reverse engineering would be a violation the DMCA as well as the EULA for GF that prohibits reverse engineering.

That won't remotely worry China $27,000,000 is pocket change in the bigger picture to them.

That said I believe GF have said they intend to make the GF more open and stand alone at some point.