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Thread: Glowforge release

  1. #526
    Just waiting for Matt McCoy to wake up ?
    John S.
    Nottingham UK.

    Generic Chinese 500 x 300 laser with Laserworks V6.0_____ VCarve pro and Aspire._____ Techno Isel router 300 x 300
    Roland CAM 2200 drag engraver.____ Sieg KX1 CNC Mill.______ Sieg KX3 CNC Mill. _____ Plus loads of crap

  2. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McCoy View Post
    Interesting Tim. What do you mean by useless?

    (The Epilog M2 with cameras) It cuts paper/thin cardboard/material. Epilog ..so far.. has shown no other good uses for it. To be able to read an object and/or drawing, then engrave it would be a fantastic time saver.
    NOTE - When Epilog tried to prove it could do more, they crashed my laser head & had to get me a new one. The Epilog camera system has been available for 22 months and have provided ZERO advancements in it's capabilities.
    Last edited by Tim Bateson; 12-07-2016 at 1:17 PM.
    Tim
    There are Big Brain people & Small Brain people. I'm one of the Big Brains - with a lot of empty space.- me
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    - Liberty Laser LLC

  3. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by John Stevenson View Post
    Just waiting for Matt McCoy to wake up ?
    Can you expand on that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Bateson View Post
    (The Epilog M2 with cameras) It cuts paper/thin cardboard/material. Epilog ..so far.. has shown no other good uses for it. To be able to read an object and/or drawing, then engrave it would be a fantastic time saver.
    NOTE - When Epilog tried to prove it could do more, they crashed my laser head & had to get me a new one. The Epilog camera system has been available for 22 months and have provided ZERO advancements in it's capabilities.
    Appreciate it.

  4. #529
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    I think the major loss to me not getting a Glowforge is the software experience. I don't care much about the camera stuff (and thus far GF has struggled with positioning accuracy and patently refuses to add hard alignment marks or rulers anywhere on the bed to assist in part alignment), but the software experience of all the currently available lasers is comparatively garbage. I know a lot of you will disagree, but you're also experienced users who probably forgot the learning curve. Modern software has moved far beyond the typical machine/engineer interfaces, and the major laser manufacturers would do well to invest in a better user experience with their software. (If Trotec or ULS would like some help, I'd happily trade my UX design skills for a machine!)

  5. #530
    Matt won't wake up, look at his other machine he swears bysigned Ahab

    Quote Originally Posted by John Stevenson View Post
    Just waiting for Matt McCoy to wake up ?
    Last edited by Bert Kemp; 12-07-2016 at 9:54 PM.
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  6. #531
    I can't imagine working with GF software would do anything for me. Software in general drives me nuts, 'engraving' software in particular.
    Mostly because it's my firm belief that:

    1- Anyone who has ever worked more than 3 months in the engraving business has never written engraving software

    2- Anyone who has written engraving software has never worked anywhere near 3 months in the engraving business

    It absolutely amazes me that -for example- very expensive and for the most part very useful software like Gravostyle does NOT have a batch-text-resize option. Corel does, and it's not 'engraving' software. Even my 26 year old Casmate does batch resize. Yes, you can batch 'auto mode' text, big whoop. 99% of my text is manually placed. I can grab all the text and resize it all, but it won't be in the same place! So it's either move everything one at a time or resize everything one at a time...

    And that's just ONE thing. I could sit here for hours and not run out of stupid stuff to b***h about ...

    While the GF software may be leaps & bounds beyond LaserCut and such, my bet is, it ain't all that...
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
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  7. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Hilton View Post
    ...but the software experience of all the currently available lasers is comparatively garbage. I know a lot of you will disagree, but you're also experienced users who probably forgot the learning curve. Modern software has moved far beyond the typical machine/engineer interfaces, and the major laser manufacturers would do well to invest in a better user experience with their software.
    You keep saying this...could you please provide some concrete examples of how the current software of, say, a ULS machine is deficient in your estimation? Better yet, tell us your gold standard system/application for "user experience" for any class of software.

    I do in fact remember my "learning curve": I was producing useful product before the guy who delivered the machine was done cleaning up the packing material. Fully mastering CorelDraw is an ongoing process, but there's not a whole lot ULS/Trotec/Epilog is going to be able to do about that. The hard part of the job is, and will remain, at the front end of the process, before the laser ever gets powered up.
    Yoga class makes me feel like a total stud, mostly because I'm about as flexible as a 2x4.
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  8. #533
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    First of all, there is no gold standard. There are specific heuristics we use to evaluate the quality of a given applications user experience. You also have to take into account the personas (the different types of people who would be using the application, and the types of people you want to be using the application) and their experiences when designing the software experience. In the case of laser software and the current and potential user-base, they key heuristic to evaluate is learnability: Given absolutely no knowledge of how a laser engraver works, how easy it is to successfully and safely use a machine to produce a desired result? Control arrangement, settings access, clarity of labels, consistency, all go into making a good software experience. They key test here is if a user understands the general concept of laser cutting, can they successfully make the machine cut with no training or guidance? Good software utilizes known, familiar concepts to help direct a user. Epilog does a good job of this by using a "print" analogy, however it falls down when you get into the drivers and actually see how things are organized and labels. If a user asks the question "where is the control to do <x>?" the answer should be immediately apparent and logical. It often isn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee DeRaud View Post
    You keep saying this...could you please provide some concrete examples of how the current software of, say, a ULS machine is deficient in your estimation? Better yet, tell us your gold standard system/application for "user experience" for any class of software.

    I do in fact remember my "learning curve": I was producing useful product before the guy who delivered the machine was done cleaning up the packing material. Fully mastering CorelDraw is an ongoing process, but there's not a whole lot ULS/Trotec/Epilog is going to be able to do about that. The hard part of the job is, and will remain, at the front end of the process, before the laser ever gets powered up.

  9. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Hilton View Post
    First of all, there is no gold standard. There are specific heuristics we use to evaluate the quality of a given applications user experience. You also have to take into account the personas (the different types of people who would be using the application, and the types of people you want to be using the application) and their experiences when designing the software experience. In the case of laser software and the current and potential user-base, they key heuristic to evaluate is learnability: Given absolutely no knowledge of how a laser engraver works, how easy it is to successfully and safely use a machine to produce a desired result? Control arrangement, settings access, clarity of labels, consistency, all go into making a good software experience. They key test here is if a user understands the general concept of laser cutting, can they successfully make the machine cut with no training or guidance? Good software utilizes known, familiar concepts to help direct a user. Epilog does a good job of this by using a "print" analogy, however it falls down when you get into the drivers and actually see how things are organized and labels. If a user asks the question "where is the control to do <x>?" the answer should be immediately apparent and logical. It often isn't.
    That extremely non-specific answer was (maybe) fine six months ago when you were talking about soccer moms using the GF in their kitchens. Now we're talking about why the current state of laser software is "garbage" for you, not some hypothetical generic user. Again, could you please provide some concrete examples of how the current Epilog/Trotec/ULS software (yes, I know they're different) is deficient? Exactly what do you want to accomplish with your shiny new laser and how long do you realistically expect it to take you to learn how to do it? When you come up with that answer, we'll come back to the question of why you think that learning curve is important in the context of a machine you expect to be using for several years.

    Because it's starting to sound like you're more interested in b****ing about whatever machine you buy, rather than actually doing something useful with it.
    Yoga class makes me feel like a total stud, mostly because I'm about as flexible as a 2x4.
    "Design"? Possibly. "Intelligent"? Sure doesn't look like it from this angle.
    We used to be hunter gatherers. Now we're shopper borrowers.
    The three most important words in the English language: "Front Towards Enemy".
    The world makes a lot more sense when you remember that Butthead was the smart one.
    You can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much ammo.

  10. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Hilton View Post
    They key test here is if a user understands the general concept of laser cutting, can they successfully make the machine cut with no training or guidance?
    Just for the record, in the case of the ULS machine I own, the answer is "yes".
    Yoga class makes me feel like a total stud, mostly because I'm about as flexible as a 2x4.
    "Design"? Possibly. "Intelligent"? Sure doesn't look like it from this angle.
    We used to be hunter gatherers. Now we're shopper borrowers.
    The three most important words in the English language: "Front Towards Enemy".
    The world makes a lot more sense when you remember that Butthead was the smart one.
    You can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much ammo.

  11. #536
    I agree with Lee. The software in most machines is not that difficult to learn. Even with the GF your gonna have to learn stuff.Especially if you don't buy the GF materials with code imprinted on them.your gonna see such a cry for help when people go to home depot buy a piece of wood put it in the GF and tell it to do something and the machine is gonna sit there and do nothing. It won't know what material is in the machine, it won't know how thick it is, nothing. Your still going to have to tell the machine what you want and its going to be a lot harder because GF has made little effort to prepare for people who just want to go to the store and buy materials and not use their precoded stuff.
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    10" Table Saw
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  12. #537
    Jason you will need training and guidance to make the GF work.
    I don't think anyone can make a laser work with out some training and guidance.If you have a basic understanding of how a laser works then you have had some training and or guidance.and yes you should beable to make a laser cut.My first experience with a laser was about 60 min's in a warehouse in Las vegas I brought it home and was cutting and engraving with no problem. Now if I didn't get that 60 mins I'd still be here wondering how to make it go.
    If the Help and advice you received here was of any VALUE to you PLEASE! Become a Contributor
    Rabbit RL_XX_6040-60 watt Laser engraving/cutting machine Oh wait its a 3D Printer my bad LOL
    Lasercut 5.3
    CorelDraw X5

    10" Miter Saw with slide
    10" Table Saw
    8" bench mount 5 speed Drill Press
    Dremel, 3x21 Belt Sander


  13. #538
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    First of all, I'm not carping about anything and I'm getting tired of you responding so defensively, because I'm not attacking you. Grow up and have a discussion. You're just as bad as the blind Glowforge defenders you claim are getting conned. I am objective about user experience because as the Director of User Experience for a large software company it's my job to do so. Learning curve is important whether you're using a machine for a moment or for years, and it's been proven time and time again that a great user experience can be and is a major differentiator in otherwise identical products. "Not that difficult to learn" is still difficult to learn. In my professional opinion designing successful software for 18 years laser software could be a lot better and Glowforge is trying to do that. Consider that most manufacturers have been using the same software for years. Software experiences and usability improvements evolve in months. What made sense 10 years ago makes very little now, and new and better, more usable ways have become the norm.

    As to a breakdown of each and every major software experience out there, I'm not going to do that because I don't have the time and no one is paying me. But here's an anecdotal example: I was getting a demo of a major manufacturer machine and was curious about seeing it engrave a 2.5d bas relief example as it's an area I'm particularly interested in and it's a feature every major manufacturer provides. After hunting around for how to do it for 20 minutes we made a phone call to support to figure it out. That, right there, should never happen. You'll say "oh your rep was inexperience or should have known" etc, and that's true, but beside the point. I, me, having never used that machine's software before, should have been able to find it.
    Last edited by Bruce Page; 12-08-2016 at 10:23 PM.

  14. #539
    Jason I might agree with what your saying but be real. Its never going to happen. In all my life I haven't found any instructions for anything that told you how to do it with out hunting for something, and usually not finding something that made it happen. I get so ticked at instructions because 99.99% of the time something is missing or just plain wrong.It goes back to what Kev said about software developers never having used a laser. Or engineers never having used a piece of equipment they designed.Guys that write the instructions for putting together your sons Christmas present. He puts one together then writes the instructions from memory always forgetting something. Its a fact of life and GF,and all the laser software writers are no different.They all think we know all their terms and we all understand what they are saying.so we should be able to do it. If that were true I'd be able to open corel and do anything I wanted all the time oh wow thats a good one huh .LOL
    If the Help and advice you received here was of any VALUE to you PLEASE! Become a Contributor
    Rabbit RL_XX_6040-60 watt Laser engraving/cutting machine Oh wait its a 3D Printer my bad LOL
    Lasercut 5.3
    CorelDraw X5

    10" Miter Saw with slide
    10" Table Saw
    8" bench mount 5 speed Drill Press
    Dremel, 3x21 Belt Sander


  15. #540
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    Exactly. That's where UX designers come in. Our job is to understand the users of our software and design an experience that fits our user's mental model. Laser manufacturers don't seen to have UX designers, and if they did their software experiences would get a lot better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bert Kemp View Post
    Jason I might agree with what your saying but be real. Its never going to happen. In all my life I haven't found any instructions for anything that told you how to do it with out hunting for something, and usually not finding something that made it happen. I get so ticked at instructions because 99.99% of the time something is missing or just plain wrong.It goes back to what Kev said about software developers never having used a laser. Or engineers never having used a piece of equipment they designed.Guys that write the instructions for putting together your sons Christmas present. He puts one together then writes the instructions from memory always forgetting something. Its a fact of life and GF,and all the laser software writers are no different.They all think we know all their terms and we all understand what they are saying.so we should be able to do it. If that were true I'd be able to open corel and do anything I wanted all the time oh wow thats a good one huh .LOL

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