Glowforge release

[Scott Shepherd]

Steven, the problem with your thesis is that it's based on incomplete knowledge. 1335 dpi from a Glowforge? On what? What you need to understand is that high quality is a result of the perfect balance between the laser's settings and the resolution that the material is capable of resolving. For example, running wood at 1335 dpi doesn't give you better results than 600 dpi because the wood can't handle it, it vaporizes at a rate that is lower than 1335 dpi, meaning you are overturning the material. Every material has that sweet spot where it's cleanly vaporizing and when you exceed that sweet spot, you are doing more bad than good.

Thats is why stating that any machine has 1335 dpi is pointless. Tell me what material will hold that resolution? And 1335 dpi with a .005" spot size is pointless. You'll see no quality improvement over 600 and 1335 because of the overlap.

Please remember, you aren't talking to people with no experiences running lasers. You are talking to people who have run, collectively, 10's of millions of parts on lasers. Don't expect us to get excited by marketing hype or things that look cool but mean very little.

It's laughable that you believe a GF will yield higher quality results than any Western machine. You mentioned dpi several times. Now tell me how many ppi it is. Oh wait, glass tubes don't do ppi.

[Bert Kemp]

1355 DPI yea a lot of machines are capable of that but who in their right mind would run a job at 1355 dpi totally not necessary to get quality engravings. Running at that high dpi will take much longer to do an engraving then at the say recommended 500 dpi

I find it interesting that when I mentioned one specific measure my statement was then applied to the whole machine. If I am wrong about the engraving quality will someone please at least mention some facts or even documented subjective evidence to show otherwise? Did we lose our critical thinking all of a sudden? Maybe I am a bit late in this conversation for where the facts where mentioned...

The glowforge lists 1355 dpi with a .006 in min spot size (roughly the same as a 2in focal length lens). Considering that Trotec recommends 500 DPI for engraving photos, why does it stand to reason that the glowforge can't get a higher quality engrave than what Trotec users are getting? I am also thoroughly impressed with Trotec and specifically the HPDFO lens from ULS (.001in spot size at 2in focal length). I am sure their hardware is capable of higher quality engraves but whether their software is making full use of that is a separate question. Just because software allows settings to be tweaked in a million different ways to get the best results also doesn't make it as accessible to some people as software that makes the right adjustments for you most of the time.

Note that I didn't say speed or best overall. Just engraving quality. Having the variable focal length could also allow one to engrave with a smaller spot size and cut with straighter sides without having to switch lenses in my mind. As we know, engraving quality is just as much about the software as the hardware. Just look at the K40 with custom software http://www.instructables.com/id/True...Laser-Cutter-/. Same tube but night and day difference in range of grey scale.

My statement would be like comparing the ergonomics of a Hyundai seat with a Ferrari seat. They are designed for different purposes and although the Ferrari might be the higher quality car, if you are really skinny and short, maybe the Hyundai would have a more ergonomic seat. That doesn't mean I think the Ferrari is overpriced or inferior to the Hyundai.

Although if anyone has a multiplayer boxing game online that could make this discussion more enjoyable lol.

By the way I just had a real sample of a Trotec engraving in my hand yesterday at lunch. One of our materials guys was at a trade show yesterday. I guess I must be blind and unintelligent to make such blasphemous claims! One fact is that 1000's of these Glowforges have been sold and many more will be sold. The product has found a niche not just among uneducated inexperienced people but even among some laser professionals. They haven't sold all their old machines I doubt, but instead have found specific uses that the glowforge is a better fit for. The question isn't if that niche exists but only what are its limits. If we as a community don't learn to understand how to recognize that niche than for many people online looking to get into laser cutting, we will be discredited due to either our arrogance or ignorance. For the purposes of this community that may not matter but I think we would be better off to welcome them, their crazy ideas of what you can do with a laser and their questions. There might come a day soon when there are more glowforges in north america than chinese lasers. I know that I could still just browse the glowforge forum to see what they are up to but this community likely has a different skillset than most glowforge users. I look forwards to hearing their questions and reading intelligent answers.

My guess is that niche is for people that appreciate intuitive software and technical support more than raw machine capabilities but can't pay the price for a top of the line machine or can't fit one in their home.

[chase standifer]

I've explained my interest in the Glowforge before but it was about 30 pages ago.

1. I understand I could get a much larger Chinese laser for a similar price. I simply don't need or want a larger laser, the bed size is a good size for everything I have ever wanted a laser for. I also do not have the room in my shop for something much larger than a Glowforge, especially for a tool that isn't a regular part of my work flow and won't get used all that often compared to something like my table saw.

2. I don't want a machine I have to tinker with to get it to work. This very subforum is a perfect example of the problems I could expect from a Chinese laser in this price range. I want a machine that just works, and the reviews coming our from the pre-release and public release units are great in this regard.

3. An easy to use UI. Cheap lasers have notoriously bad UI, so again I want something from a software standpoint that just works. Again, the reviews so far are looking good in this regards. I understand this doesn't alleviate the learning curve for the CAD programs to make designs but it is one less learning curve. Again for a machine I will no use that often not having to relearn the software intricacies every couple of months sounds great.

4. The cutting speed doesn't really concern me, I'm not using this for a business so throughput doesn't really matter to me. I have no problem pressing the button and waiting 10 minutes for something engrave. Dan has actually recommended to lots of people on the Glowforge forums that this machine isn't for them if they are looking for a high throughput machine to runs something like an Etsy store off of.

5. Have I been upset at the delays? Yes, but not having a laser cutter has taken absolutely nothing out of my life. Waiting for it has had no effect on my life and luckily I am in a position where I can afford the risk, never mind that they have unfailing refunded anyone who has decided they no longer wanted to wait. Not much of a risk there, just an annoyance. This is about the max I was willing to spend on a laser cutter based on the amount I plan on using it and again this machine seems to meet my needs and wants in a laser cutter. Based on the risk in any crowdfunded item I think some people made poor decisions by pre-ordering a Glowforge while planning on operating a business on it, but that is their risk to take.

A last couple of notes. First, the elitism shown in this forum has been off-putting and honestly this will probably be the last place I come to ask any questions I would have whether it was for a Glowforge or any other laser cutter. I would hate for any of you to loose time answering questions on tinkering with chinese lasers to answer some Glowforge fools' questions. Whether that was the intent or not that is how this thread has come across, anyone dumb enough to buy a Glowforge isn't worth your time and must be so dumb they don't have a high school diploma. Second, Glowforge has never pitched the Glowforge, pro or basic models, as a machine to run a business off of and as I mentioned above they have cautioned people about this many times. Nor have they ever said the machine doesn't need to be vented or was somehow a risk free laser. They have been clear that the machine needs to be vented and that you should use other common safety equipment such as safety glasses from day one. This whole complaint is based off of a clip in their promo video. I can almost promise you that anyone new to lasers would have noticed even if a vent hose had been hooked up to the machine. This is what instructions are for. If you are afraid the Glowforge is going to lead to a rash of house fires, etc I hope you don't use your oven, iron, a power tool, or anything else in your house that has come risk in using it. I will with hold final judgement until I get my machine, and I will gladly give it a bad review if it doesn't meet my expectations.

The bottomline is that I wanted an affordable laser cutter in a small form factor that didn't involve the hardware and software pains of a chinese machine. This fits the bill, we will see it if it was worth the cost and wait. Good thing I am at a place in my life where I could take the chance.

[Scott Shepherd]

First, I couldn't care less what you do or do not buy or run. I don't care. Want 20 GF? Great, buy them. Doesn't change my life or my business one bit.

Second, people don't put things in their ovens and toasters that can release toxic gasses and kill people or damage their lungs. Not the first to try that comparison. I guess the old stand by of "you could get killed walking across the street" didn't make the cut. Would you sell commercial grade chemicals to the general public? Why not? Because in the wrong hands, they could kill people. That's a more accurate analogy. When it DOES happen, be sure to post back and remind us who was on the right side of the safety topic.

Once again, its those with a decade of more running lasers who are accused of knowing nothing about running lasers by people who don't even own a laser, in many cases. Yet, we are the ones with our heads in the sand.

I hope they work and work well for people who bought them. I've never looked down on anyone for buying one. However, it gets a bit tiring to hear how we are all just jealous laser snobs because we care about the safety of people running lasers from their homes.

[Bert Kemp]

Another example is the guy comparing engraving quality of a GF to a Trotec who's been a laser owner for less then a month and now is telling us all about DPI makes better engravings yet has another thread asking all kinds of questions about his ray fine because he knows nothing.

[chase standifer]

My point is that it isn't more dangerous than any other laser out there or any more dangerous than 50 other things your house. You could make plenty of deadly gasses on accident or even a bomb on purpose from chemicals under your sink. I could buy the cheapest or most expensive laser on the market, fail to vent it and die from the fumes. It isn't a danger that is applicable only to the Glowforge. I haven't seen the instructions yet, but I'll bet that there are big red letters (or something to that effect) in the Glowforge instructions that say the machine must be vented and do not leave it unattended due to fire risk as well what materials not to cut due to the risk of off gassing.

Scott I will say that your posts have been technical in nature and not of the elitist attitude that I was referring to. I have no issues with people post technical rebuttals or knowledge from your experience why the Glowforge might not be the best laser for a certain purpose. I think it boils down to many of the more active members on here use lasers in a professional or serious hobby capacity so you aren' the Glowforge demographic. But a significant number of posts in this thread have just been folks stopping in whenever there is an update to drop their clever line about how stupid Glowforge supporters are. There was literally a post two pages ago about a member being annoyed that Glowforge supporters will be here asking questions and "plugging up" the forum. Are the questions from first time laser users with any other brand more valuable or meaningful than a Glowforge user? That is the elitism that I am speaking of.

[Dave Sheldrake]

always makes me smile and folks wonder why I don't get involved much these days

[Gary Hair]

. There was literally a post two pages ago about a member being annoyed that Glowforge supporters will be here asking questions and "plugging up" the forum. Are the questions from first time laser users with any other brand more valuable or meaningful than a Glowforge user? That is the elitism that I am speaking of.

That was me and I stand by my statement. 11 years ago when I joined this forum Chinese lasers weren't even on the market, not like today anyway. This forum was 99% related to mainstream lasers and you could get a lot of useful info by just scanning a few pages. Fast forward 10 years to the "Chinese laser era" and the vast majority of posts are about troubleshooting Chinese lasers, upgrading Chinese lasers, or asking what Chinese laser is the best one to buy. If you have a question about a mainstream laser or want to do research on one, you have to wade through page after page of Chinese laser posts just to find anything about your question or interest. Why are there so many posts? Two reasons - the number of Chinese lasers sold vs. the numbers of mainstream is quite large, and second, the typical buyer of a Chinese laser is a hobbyist that has relatively little, or no, experience running computer based equipment. Both of these reasons mean that there will be a large number of posts that are useless to mainstream laser users because of the nature of the post. It's not elitist to say that a Ferrari owner can't get help on a Chevrolet forum, it's just a statement of fact, and why I would advocate for a separate forum for Chinese lasers as a way to better serve each group.

[Keith Outten]

Historically the people who frequent our engravers forum have been gracious about sharing their expertise and opinions, sometimes brutally honest but that is what you get when you converse with people who are often at the top of their game. I should also note that no matter what the topic discussed here we are a friendly Community first so lets not lose faith or run from any conversation due to opinions that are at the extremes of any topic.

I have said that I would not create additional laser engraving forums however I am inclined to reverse my position if or when a situation dictates it is necessary. In fact it might be wise to separate the Western machines, Chinese machines and the Glowforge machines into three forum areas if that is preferable to the majority here. Note that if this happens the people who are new to laser engraving will surely lose the valuable input from those who are the most experienced as there would probably be some pressure for everyone to stay in their own forum area. Remember also that although hardware and software can vary significantly the basic techniques we discuss are for the most part common to every machine. If we have to argue about what thread fits in what forum I will need additional Moderators willing to be referees and topic supervisors. This forum is extremely valuable to a large number of people so lets not be hasty and ruin something that is unique and an amazing resource we all enjoy.

Gary, your right about things changing over the years and it has made an impact on this forum in particular. Because there are such significant differences between the more commercial style Western lasers and the Chinese lasers that are often the choice for first time operators and hobby engravers it has made it more difficult to narrow your field of interest. Obviously we do have Members of our group who use Chinese lasers commercially but they are less likely to ask entry level setup and repair questions that seem to dominate this forum on occasion.

I should remind everyone that we do host private groups here and you are welcome to start your own group if you feel it necessary or that it would improve your ability to participate here. Unfortunately the Groups feature here has always reduced the number of people who participate in any topic and often reduces the value of the conversation.

[Bill George]

Ditto 100% of what Gary just said. The only reason I own a Chinese laser as I can fix it myself and don't have to come on here and ask stupid questions about the machine. Maybe about Corel Draw or procedure's Stupid Questions!

I was one of the first to purchase LightObjects new design 40 watt compact machine. It worked out of the box and NO screwing around with mirrors or the like. Its fast and does all I need, I do not need a large machine anymore like my ULS. which was perfect. Downsizing for retirement living and it must fit. PS GF people you need to vent the machine outside and provide cooling for the water cooled tube.

Keith I would suggest a separate area for the GlowForge people and they can come over to this Forum and so some research if needed.

[Clark Pace]

My point is that it isn't more dangerous than any other laser out there or any more dangerous than 50 other things your house. You could make plenty of deadly gasses on accident or even a bomb on purpose from chemicals under your sink. I could buy the cheapest or most expensive laser on the market, fail to vent it and die from the fumes. It isn't a danger that is applicable only to the Glowforge. I haven't seen the instructions yet, but I'll bet that there are big red letters (or something to that effect) in the Glowforge instructions that say the machine must be vented and do not leave it unattended due to fire risk as well what materials not to cut due to the risk of off gassing.

Scott I will say that your posts have been technical in nature and not of the elitist attitude that I was referring to. I have no issues with people post technical rebuttals or knowledge from your experience why the Glowforge might not be the best laser for a certain purpose. I think it boils down to many of the more active members on here use lasers in a professional or serious hobby capacity so you aren' the Glowforge demographic. But a significant number of posts in this thread have just been folks stopping in whenever there is an update to drop their clever line about how stupid Glowforge supporters are. There was literally a post two pages ago about a member being annoyed that Glowforge supporters will be here asking questions and "plugging up" the forum. Are the questions from first time laser users with any other brand more valuable or meaningful than a Glowforge user? That is the elitism that I am speaking of.

Ok. This laser may not be less or more dangerous. But I can tell you my laser was not advertised working in a kitchen. So while the product may not be the advertising may make people thing that it's save to run in a kitchen. That can cause a more dangerous situation.

I kind of wish the Glowforge would just release the product and then we will see if it's a good or bad product.

[Art Mann]

The big name laser manufacturers don't sell a machine in the price range of the vast majority of hobbyists. The last time I checked, SMC welcomed hobbyists. Therefore, if you have hobby people on this forum, they are mostly going to own Chinese equipment. If Glowforge becomes a viable company (very much in doubt in my opinion), owners will inevitably show up here. Maybe the Glowforge supporters on this thread can become experts and help them out.

[Bill George]

The big name laser manufacturers don't sell a machine in the price range of the vast majority of hobbyists. The last time I checked, SMC welcomed hobbyists. Therefore, if you have hobby people on this forum, they are mostly going to own Chinese equipment. If Glowforge becomes a viable company (very much in doubt in my opinion), owners will inevitably show up here. Maybe the Glowforge supporters on this thread can become experts and help them out.

That is why I got the compact 40 watt machine from LO, its their answer to the K40

[Kev Williams]

I am inclined to reverse my position if or when a situation dictates it is necessary. In fact it might be wise to separate the Western machines, Chinese machines and the Glowforge machines into three forum areas if that is preferable to the majority here. Note that if this happens the people who are new to laser engraving will surely lose the valuable input from those who are the most experienced as there would probably be some pressure for everyone to stay in their own forum area.

Bingo... just as a point of reference, I own 4 boats, all different brands and each boat is very much different. Like with Mustangs and Camaro's and Dodge Pickups etc etc there are forums dedicated to each brand. However, I frequent a few "generic" boating forums that cover all the bases. One of the forums has a few brand-specific sub-forums, but they get very little traffic, while the 'general boating' section is hit hundreds of times a week. Could be many reasons for this but my opinion is that boats are boats, and the vast majority of shared advice and info pertains to ALL boats, plus, it's more fun to hobnob with larger groups...

--much the same as with laser engraving machines--

Ergo, I think it would be a mistake to make 3 separate laser forums. or 4, what about fiber lasers? If just for the helluvit I were to buy a Glowforge, GF I'd have one of each, and if I have some trouble or advice to give, it would be ridiculous to have to sift thru 4 different forum areas to communicate...

The answer to this problem is very simple, just a few issues to deal with...

First, as with many other forums, NO BRAND BASHING allowed. To point out known deficiencies or safety issues with certain machines is totally acceptable. But posting up to simply assert a negative "if you'd bought something else" attitude should not be allowed. Mods could delete these types of posts, and soon they'll simply stop...

Second, if you have some positive input about a certain brand or model laser someone is asking about, post up--
If you don't, ignore it!
Graham Taylor's recent post on his Speedy 300 problem has had only one post (in 2 days) and it is a "sorry, can't help with the problem" but also included an "if my machine can help let me know" addendum. Nice offer. Fact is there's a LOT of Trotec owners on this board, yet no one else responded. Obviously no one else had and answer. And this one thread is proof that there's no shame in NOT responding to certain posts. No reason to respond to GF posts if you have no advice to give...

The key is positive attitude. The only way this forum is going to get clogged up is if those with with no advice choose to post up negative input- which just breeds more negative input.

Leave This Forum As Is. Delete bashing threads. Help if you can, keep a positive, friendly attitude. Me, I'll be reading all the GF posts if/when they happen. I may just learn something

[Gary Hair]

Maybe the Glowforge supporters on this thread can become experts and help them out.

Western lasers, Chinese lasers and Glowforge lasers will have their own unique support needs and although basic laser operations will be helpful to all, the questions and answers for each individually rarely pertain to the others. If I were a Glowforge owner I would be thankful to not have to wade through all of the posts that have nothing to do with my issue when there is a problem to solve. Moderation won't be without its problems but it should be fairly easy to separate the type-specific questions from the generic ones.