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Thread: Glowforge release

  1. #1021
    ::::yawn::::

    Matt, you've had your laser for a while. Ever had the need for a single thing on that list? I certainly haven't. We've run over a million parts. Probably closer to 1.5 million parts. And we did it without any of that. I can't even tell what the heck most of that really is. I think someone must have gotten a patent attorney with a thesaurus to fill some of that out
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
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    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  2. #1022
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    It would be great if "patent" always implied "groundbreaking", but sadly that has not been true for quite a while. At this point you can get a patent for saying "X sounds like a neat idea" without needing to prove X is actually either desirable or possible.

    (I'm not sure exactly when the patent examination process jumped the shark, but it was probably about the time they changed the rules to allow granting patents for algorithms without requiring a physical implementation.)
    Yoga class makes me feel like a total stud, mostly because I'm about as flexible as a 2x4.
    "Design"? Possibly. "Intelligent"? Sure doesn't look like it from this angle.
    We used to be hunter gatherers. Now we're shopper borrowers.
    The three most important words in the English language: "Front Towards Enemy".
    The world makes a lot more sense when you remember that Butthead was the smart one.
    You can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much ammo.

  3. #1023
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Henriksen View Post
    As I said, nothing groundbreaking.

    Without a working internet connection the GF is a paperweight.
    Yes you did. I hope you get a working internet connection soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    ::::yawn::::

    Matt, you've had your laser for a while. Ever had the need for a single thing on that list? I certainly haven't. We've run over a million parts. Probably closer to 1.5 million parts. And we did it without any of that. I can't even tell what the heck most of that really is. I think someone must have gotten a patent attorney with a thesaurus to fill some of that out
    That's a different discussion for another time. You'll be happy to know that one of them is a safety feature!

    I think the topic was:

    1) Nothing new to see here.
    2) R&D is for nerds. They should just use off-the-shelf parts (contradicts number 1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee DeRaud View Post
    It would be great if "patent" always implied "groundbreaking", but sadly that has not been true for quite a while. At this point you can get a patent for saying "X sounds like a neat idea" without needing to prove X is actually either desirable or possible.

    (I'm not sure exactly when the patent examination process jumped the shark, but it was probably about the time they changed the rules to allow granting patents for algorithms without requiring a physical implementation.)
    OK. Hopefully they'll see this and ask for their money back.

  4. #1024
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    If it is one thing I learned in my career as an engineer for an automobile company, it is that a majority of all patents won't stand up if challenged in court.

  5. #1025
    The patents are individual Matt, nothing new there either, just unique in their own method of implementation

    Mitsubishi have been doing Visual preview for 20 years on lasers, pretty much every metal cutting laser ever made has dynamic focusing, it's a requirement pretty much when you have a very short focal length on a short wavelength (1,064) none of them use cameras....there's a good reason for that (Hint hint, smoke and fumes) Yamazaki Machine Tool were doing remote processing 20 years ago with the H500-50 Series 3's (Via Modems)

    In the UK a large number of directives cover machine tools, they are covered as machines, as lasers and as electronics as well as high voltage regulations on top. Then you have HSE regulations if they are used for work purposes...look at it this way, here all lasers have at least 5 to 6 warning stickers as a very basic requirement as well as intrinsic electrical safety, RF emissions (the product of a HT spark) emergency stops, recessed starts,key lockouts....lets not get started on fire regulations and insurance...the EU is beyond over regulated.....factories work (machines used for profit) are an absolute nightmare here (and one I deal with on a daily basis)

    If they don't have all the approvals now, it will be next July before they get them at least and it doesn't matter how much money you throw at the agencies responsible...they simply have two speeds...dead slow and dead stop

    When ever I get an HSE inspector round to do a random inspection, he heads straight for the lasers...the other machines tools like the CNC's and machining centres get ignored for the most part... he's on those lasers like a bad rash
    Our border control agencies have zero patience...they don't ask questions, Trading Standards simply seize and destroy stuff that doesn't meet regulation
    Last edited by Dave Sheldrake; 10-09-2017 at 8:33 PM.
    You did what !

  6. #1026
    Wow-- I took a browse at the 'moving material during laser fabrication' patent app, I was stunned at the amount of unreadable gobbledygook; 27,071 words to explain there's a camera that takes a pic of something within the laser box and then the laser engraves what the camera saw in the same place it saw it...

    I think
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  7. #1027
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    Matt is your Glowforge still on order?
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  8. #1028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McCoy View Post
    You'll be happy to know that one of them is a safety feature!
    Including, wonder of wonders, a door interlock, implemented either by switches like every other laser on the planet, or possibly via a camera and software running in the cloud, because that's how they roll. Chuck in some handwaving about other "safety/reliability enhancements" of the form "if the machine doesn't do what we expect, we'll shut it off", and you've got what passes for patentable innovation.

    Or not.
    Yoga class makes me feel like a total stud, mostly because I'm about as flexible as a 2x4.
    "Design"? Possibly. "Intelligent"? Sure doesn't look like it from this angle.
    We used to be hunter gatherers. Now we're shopper borrowers.
    The three most important words in the English language: "Front Towards Enemy".
    The world makes a lot more sense when you remember that Butthead was the smart one.
    You can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much ammo.

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Sheldrake View Post
    The patents are individual Matt, nothing new there either, just unique in their own method of implementation
    It's hard to square "nothing new" with "unique method of implementation".

    Mitsubishi have been doing Visual preview for 20 years on lasers...
    How much is that Mitsubishi?

    In the UK a large number of directives cover machine tools, they are covered as machines, as lasers and as electronics as well as high voltage regulations...
    Not doubting you, but couldn't find anything about lasers or high voltage on the link you provided via a site search. Under Machinery, The Annex IV of the Directive contains a list of about 25 types of machine which are subject to special procedures beyond self-certification. They're mostly woodworking power tools and car lifts, but nothing about lasers or high voltage machines. No biggie - I was just curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill George View Post
    Matt is your Glowforge still on order?
    I already have lasers. It looks like they're now "shipping" Day 14 of the 30 day campaign, if you want in though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee DeRaud View Post
    Including, wonder of wonders, a door interlock, implemented either by switches like every other laser on the planet, or possibly via a camera and software running in the cloud, because that's how they roll. Chuck in some handwaving about other "safety/reliability enhancements" of the form "if the machine doesn't do what we expect, we'll shut it off", and you've got what passes for patentable innovation.

    Or not.
    Get those patents out of my yard.
    Last edited by Matt McCoy; 10-09-2017 at 11:15 PM.

  10. #1030
    How much is that Mitsubishi?
    From $260k upwards but Chinese machine also have the same function, the later AWC cards do a live preview as the machine runs or can run a simulation before it runs.They also have a copy follow function from a camera (mostly for work on materials such as dress making and cloth cutting) You didn't say Cost was a consideration, you simply said it was something new...I pointed out...it isn't

    It's hard to square "nothing new" with "unique method of implementation"
    Not really, they are promoting dynamic focus as something new, it isn't, Chinese machines can do it as can all metal cutting lasers, some work on capacitance, some on air pressure in the nozzle vortex but it's the same end result.(some chinese machines now come with a sensor that will pick up organics like plastics and wood as well) The idea of using a camera is fairly new, that doesn't mean it's a good idea when companies with billion $$ budgets looked at it and thought it wasn't a good way of doing it with most of them having decades in the manufacture of laser cutters.
    You did what !

  11. #1031
    My internet connection works fine, thank you. Luckily, even if it didn't, I would still be able to use my laser. As long as you don't try to base a business around a GF it's probably not a big deal but some of the people who buy them have plans to start a business around the GF.

    Taking out patents is very costly business. In case of GF I have serious doubts it's money well spent.
    G. Weike LG900N 100W RECI RDWorks V8
    Leiming LM2513FL 1kW Raycus fiber laser cutter
    Wisely 50W Raycus engraver

  12. #1032
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McCoy View Post
    I think the topic was:

    1) Nothing new to see here.
    2) R&D is for nerds. They should just use off-the-shelf parts (contradicts number 1)
    Ahhh Matt, good to see you still haven't lost your ability to see the glass totally full

    No one said R&D is for nerds. R&D is great. If I were an investor, which I'm not, if you told me you'd spent "tens of millions" (meaning $20 million or more) on R&D and production improvements, what I'd expect to see at the end of that spending spree isn't this....

    A laser that cuts itself off over 75 degrees, (never seen ANY machine do that before GF), requires files as small as 1MB in size be broken up into multiple files and stitched back together to make it work, doesn't engrave the full travel of the machine, runs slower than many Chinese machine on the market, or slower than Western machines were 2 decades ago (just from watching videos and reading actual user posts), and can take 20 minutes to process a single file prior to actually running the machine.

    If that's what you think $20 million in investment should get you, remind me not to invest any money with you

    In my opinion, $20 million in investments into R&D and production would get you a lot more than that. At least it would if it were my $20 million
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
    Router : ShopBot 48" x 96" CNC Router Rotary Engravers : (2) Xenetech XOT 16 x 25 Rotary Engravers

    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  13. #1033
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    In my opinion, $20 million in investments into R&D and production would get you a lot more than that. At least it would if it were my $20 million
    If I had $20 million I'd spend most of it on fast cars and fast women, the rest I'd probably waste...

  14. #1034
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Sheldrake View Post
    From $260k upwards...You didn't say Cost was a consideration...
    Well, it is. In the real world, it's probably always THE consideration. This is where I have to say apples to oranges, or something.

    Not really, they are promoting dynamic focus as something new...some work on capacitance, some on air pressure...same end result...

    idea of using a camera is fairly new...
    Bingo! With that last statement, you have the opportunity to see the forest - à la the patents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Henriksen View Post
    My internet connection works fine...
    That's great! With access to the cloud now, the world is your oyster.

    ...some of the people who buy them have plans to start a business around the GF.
    Wouldn't be the way I would go, but their business is none of my business.

    Taking out patents is very costly business. In case of GF I have serious doubts it's money well spent.
    I hope they all thought about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    ... if I were an investor, which I'm not...
    If I were a (doctor/mechanic/chef/lawyer/carpenter/etc., which I'm not...

    Opinions are OK, in my book. I wouldn't hesitate to heed any engraving/job shop/business/fabrication/etc. advice from you, but that doesn't necessarily make one (not you specifically) an expert on a tech startup and all that it encompasses.

  15. #1035
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McCoy View Post
    Opinions are OK, in my book. I wouldn't hesitate to heed any engraving/job shop/business/fabrication/etc. advice from you, but that doesn't necessarily make one (not you specifically) an expert on a tech startup and all that it encompasses.
    Tens of millions Matt, tens of millions. That's a LOT of money, even in your world And for what technological breakthrough? Slower machines? Epilog had a camera system that took a snapshot of the engraving area and would rotate, move the job around about 3-4 years ago. I watched it in Vegas at a show. Cameras taking shots down onto the bed aren't new. And for tens of millions of dollars, I'd love to be able to hang my hat on at least one feature that was a "Can't live without it" feature. So far, I haven't seen it.

    Can you point to any features that would justify tens of millions in R&D and production investments? Keep in mind, $10,000,000 is $100 per hour for 100,000 hours, so $20M would be $100 per hour at 200,000 hours. That's a LOT of development costs for ANY project.
    Last edited by Scott Shepherd; 10-10-2017 at 11:18 AM. Reason: fixed dyslexic moment :)
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
    Router : ShopBot 48" x 96" CNC Router Rotary Engravers : (2) Xenetech XOT 16 x 25 Rotary Engravers

    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

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